Porsche Cayenne VR6 (VW) Why uses C30 lo/mid-saps?

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Its a gasoline VR6 engine in the U.S. with the high-ish sulfur gas. Friend of mine just got a good 2010 Cayenne VR6 and I had to tell her to get Mobil1 ESP 5w30 instead of the cheap Walmart M1 0w40 or Castrol Edge.
Can't figure out why Porsche-VW insists on the C30 (VW 504) here. Is there a technical reason why?
Many Porsche dealerships just put M1 0w40 in their VR6 vehicles without thinking. Actually Porsche says use an A40 0w40 in their V8s, but why not VR6's?
 
Supposedly, the EPA lowered the max sulfur content in gasoline starting Jan 1st, 2017. I don't think it was a news worthy item at the time due to the media focusing on the Don.
 
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Supposedly, the EPA lowered the max sulfur content in gasoline starting Jan 1st, 2017.

Right, but the vehicle and oil recommendation came from 2010.

I do find it odd, indeed.
 
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
I do find it odd, indeed.

I'm puzzled. Example: Same model year 2010 VW CC model with the 3.2L VR6 (Cayenne uses the 3.6L VR6) uses an A40 like M1 0w40 oil, not a C30.
 
Originally Posted By: pbm
Originally Posted By: skyactiv
https://www.epa.gov/gasoline-standards/gasoline-sulfur


According to this article, sulfur content in gasoline is limited to 10 ppm as of this year. How does this compare with gasoline currently sold in Europe?

In most countries in Europe, sulfur has been at this level for decades. That's why Euro car manufacturers have been recommending low/mid SAPS oils for their gasoline engines there for quite some time, but they hesitated to do the same in the US.
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
I do find it odd, indeed.

I'm puzzled. Example: Same model year 2010 VW CC model with the 3.2L VR6 (Cayenne uses the 3.6L VR6) uses an A40 like M1 0w40 oil, not a C30.

For example VW CC is NOT using 3.2 V6 (That is Audi engine) but 3.6 VR6,s ame you find in Cayenne. Reason is that CC has transverse engine and 3.2 V6 would not be able to fit there. Narrow angle 3.6 VR6 was built for platform on which VW CC is made with 10.6 degree angle.
 
edyvw, OK I see the VR6 versions you mentioned. So a 2010 VW CC uses the same engine the 2010 Cayenne does, yet the CC gets A40, and the Porsche gets C30.
I'm starting to think there is one German engineer at Porsche that knows why C30 was spec'ed, and he won't talk. Ve have vays of making him talk though.....
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
edyvw, OK I see the VR6 versions you mentioned. So a 2010 VW CC uses the same engine the 2010 Cayenne does, yet the CC gets A40, and the Porsche gets C30.
I'm starting to think there is one German engineer at Porsche that knows why C30 was spec'ed, and he won't talk. Ve have vays of making him talk though.....

Why Porsche is spec. C30 I have no idea. it could be that manual is carried over from Europe. Also, it could be that Porsche thinks that FSI is not diluting oil as much as TFSI and it could be that there is some trick to VR6 in Porsche.
I would say, Porsche manual is carried over from Europe.
But yes, VW specs. VW 502.00 for VR6.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Also, it could be that Porsche thinks that FSI is not diluting oil as much as TFSI and it could be that there is some trick to VR6 in Porsche.
I would say, Porsche manual is carried over from Europe.


Doesn't seem like its just a manual carryover from Europe thing, since its been this way for 8 years, and still is.
Fuel dilution? I don't know how that might couple into this.
At first I thought it was a CAFE issue with Porsche, getting better fleet fuel economy from a 5w-30 spec, but M1 ESP has a high fuel-hog HTHS=3.58, not much difference at all from M1 0w-40 with HTHS=3.6.

Looking at a VOA of M1 ESP 5w30, it does have 1274 ppm Calcium, quite low, which we know means you probably (not always) get less LSPI with that DI high compression engine when lugging it pulling that massive body. That is my best guess.

This is the classic case of recommending an oil for somebody else's car, so that if a problem develops they won't blame me for using the "wrong" non-spec oil, since I'd likely use Castrol Edge 0w40 if it was mine!!
 
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Also, it could be that Porsche thinks that FSI is not diluting oil as much as TFSI and it could be that there is some trick to VR6 in Porsche.
I would say, Porsche manual is carried over from Europe.


Doesn't seem like its just a manual carryover from Europe thing, since its been this way for 8 years, and still is.
Fuel dilution? I don't know how that might couple into this.
At first I thought it was a CAFE issue with Porsche, getting better fleet fuel economy from a 5w-30 spec, but M1 ESP has a high fuel-hog HTHS=3.58, not much difference at all from M1 0w-40 with HTHS=3.6.

Looking at a VOA of M1 ESP 5w30, it does have 1274 ppm Calcium, quite low, which we know means you probably (not always) get less LSPI with that DI high compression engine when lugging it pulling that massive body. That is my best guess.

This is the classic case of recommending an oil for somebody else's car, so that if a problem develops they won't blame me for using the "wrong" non-spec oil, since I'd likely use Castrol Edge 0w40 if it was mine!!

Man, this is know issue on Euro car. VW 504.00/507.00 (Porsche C30, same spec.) are Low-SAPS oils made for moder diesels (DPF/SCR system) and DI engines. VW at that time had issues with:
1. Fuel dilution (high sulfur negatively affects TBN).
2. CBU.

C30 oils have LOW SAPS and particularly M1 5W30 ESP has very low sulfated ash level at 0.6%. That should prevent to certain extent CBU. However, for C30 oils dilution is HUGE problem in the U.S. I tried M1 5W30 ESP in my previous car, VW CC 2.0T, and at 3K TBN dropped below 2.
In Europe C30 oils were already in effect in 2010 (actually sometimes in 2005 they got rolled out). So it is carry over, since EU gas does not have high sulfur levels, and burn is bit different because EU standards allowed more NoX then the U.S. standards (less CO2 then U.S.), so there is less dilution.
VW 504.00/507.00, C30, BMW LL-01, 04, MB 229.5, 229.51 etc, regardless of grade, are not energy conserving oils.
 
Originally Posted By: edyvw
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Originally Posted By: Quattro Pete
I do find it odd, indeed.

I'm puzzled. Example: Same model year 2010 VW CC model with the 3.2L VR6 (Cayenne uses the 3.6L VR6) uses an A40 like M1 0w40 oil, not a C30.

For example VW CC is NOT using 3.2 V6 (That is Audi engine) but 3.6 VR6,s ame you find in Cayenne. Reason is that CC has transverse engine and 3.2 V6 would not be able to fit there. Narrow angle 3.6 VR6 was built for platform on which VW CC is made with 10.6 degree angle.



(2010 Cayenne VR6 3.6L) The Porsche Cayenne, Audi Q7, and Volkswagen Touareg are shared chassis/platforms and use many of the same parts including some engines. Using a Porsche A40 spec oil is all that is needed for your Cayenne.
 
Yet, why does Porsche disagree with all of us? Like you, I do think an A40 would be fine here, yet Porsche says C30. Maybe it is an 8-year repeated "mistake" in the Owner's Manual as edyvw thinks.

Can you imagine Porsche denying an engine warranty claim due to use of A40 oil? I can't.

The only other possibility I can think of, is similar to some LSPI problems Chevy has been having with their 1.5L turbo engines where part of the fix is to use AC Delco full synthetic oil which they think won't cause LSPI as much. C30 should cause less LSPI if that's the problem.

Of course, H-Tech said it, Touaregs and Q7s, with the same heavy body, same engine, don't use C30.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
Its a gasoline VR6 engine in the U.S. with the high-ish sulfur gas. Friend of mine just got a good 2010 Cayenne VR6 and I had to tell her to get Mobil1 ESP 5w30 instead of the cheap Walmart M1 0w40 or Castrol Edge.
Can't figure out why Porsche-VW insists on the C30 (VW 504) here. Is there a technical reason why?
Many Porsche dealerships just put M1 0w40 in their VR6 vehicles without thinking. Actually Porsche says use an A40 0w40 in their V8s, but why not VR6's?


Exhaust after treatment device compatibility usually.
 
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