ZDDP PPM Questions... please don't beat me. (long)

[jamesc]

Haven't posted here in years and trying to unravel the ZDDP jungle. I know this topic has been hashed to no end. Years ago I worked in the lubes service center of a well known refiner and it taught me to be suspect of marketing.

That said the applications I'm concerned with are drag racing motorcycles (old kawasaki air cooled to be specific) that have a history of problems (in general not mine specifically) with cam and tappet failures. I also have a 1997 Dodge with a Cummins that has an exhaust brake in it along with heavier exhaust valve springs (believe me they're stiff).

I've been in a habit of using Shell Rotella T 15-40 but am not certain what the deal is with Shell lubricants currently. What I'm interested in is the zinc content as these engines have high metal to metal sheer loading in the valve train.

I've been poking around and it seems to raise more questions than it answers.
If I understand correctly anything with a SN/SM rating is also for use in gas engines so it has a reduced zinc content in the additive package? If so what exact ratings should still contain the >1000ppm zinc especially given the increasing emissions controls on diesel engines.

Thanks

 

[69GTX]

The SN ratings of 0/5/10w-40 of PCMO's that meet A3/B4 ratings still tend to carry 1000 ppm zinc. SN HDEO's in the 40 grades probably carry more. The major brands carry racing oils that are higher than that.

 

[901Memphis]

I think Mobil 1 high mileage 10w40 is still using good zddp levels and it's a good oil too

 

[dustyroads]

I can only tell you that the new Rotella T4 (CK-4) 15W40 has about the same Phosphorus and Zinc as the previous CJ-4 Rotella T. The new stuff has a different additive package but has maintained the Phos/Zinc. The T4 stuff is meant to survive higher heat for longer periods (and said to provide a little better wear protection), and that goes for any of the new CK-4 oils.

Ford has made a big deal of the Phosphorus levels in HDEO....you could always use the Motorcraft oil.

 

[SR5]

Hey Mate,
Welcome back, nice air-cooled Kawasaki, I've ridden a few K bikes over the years.

You are asking about ZDDP (zinc) at a very confusing time, a few years a go all HDEO (mixed fleet diesel and petrol) oils and many HM (high mileage) oils were high in zinc, but this has changed a lot recently, with most SN oils trying to keep to ILSAC limits of about 850 ppm zinc.

Valvoline make a VR-1 series of racing oils that are still high in zinc.

Here is a link to the zinc levels in Mobil 1 synthetic oils. (M1 Zinc PDF)

You can see the M1 0W40 FS and M1 5W50 FS have 1100 ppm zinc.
M1 15W50 and M1 5W40 TDT have 1300 ppm zinc.
Their two motorcycle oils M1 10W40 4T Racing (1200 ppm) and M1 20W50 V-Twin (1750 ppm) are both high zinc.

The HDEO oils like Rotella and Delo have just switched over to the new API CK-4 from the old CJ-4 standard. Sure in the old days if you got a 40 grade HDEO that was API CJ-4 / SM (or SL), you had an oil good for both diesel and petrol engines that was high in zinc. Now with the new CK-4 standard, it's early days and we are still learning the lay of the land.

Some new HDEO oil (like Delo from memory) list their new oil as API CK-4 / SN (good for diesel and petrol) but list them as only having low ILSAC levels of zinc.

Other new HDEO oil from Rotella are still showing high zinc when sent away for oil analysis, but are only listed as API CK-4 (no petrol spec). Here is a link to a recent Rotella 10W30 CK-4 oil analysis that shows about 1150 ppm zinc.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/4377748/

My early take on it, if you see a HDEO that is CK-4 / SN then it probably has low (regular) zinc levels. If you see a HDEO that was mixed-fleet before, but is now API CK-4 only, it probably has high zinc levels, and is probably fine for petrol (gas) engines, but they are not certifying it for petrol (gas) anymore due simply to the elevated zinc levels being above the ILSAC / SN limits. But this is a complete guess from me about CK-4 only oils being still mixed-fleet suitable.

 

[userfriendly]

In my experience with FT cams is base oil viscosity. My pick would be either Delo 400 SAE 40 or a SAE 50 with high SAPS.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: 901Memphis
I think Mobil 1 high mileage 10w40 is still using good zddp levels and it's a good oil too


Yes M1 10W40 HM is a good oil, and it was listed as 1100 ppm zinc, but they have recently changed the formula and it's now listed as 900 ppm zinc, same as regular M1 5W30

https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us/pvl/files/pdfs/mobil-1-oil-product-specs-guide.pdf

 

[OPR4H]

Mike Lavalle flames? Sweet!
I'd use a CI4 Diesel combined with A3B4 Acea spec.

 

[Jetronic]

I think this is one instance where Rat's blog might be helpful....

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
I think this is one instance where Rat's blog might be helpful....


Perhaps the method but not the methodology. That makes any "results" meaningless from that blog.

 

[Jetronic]

True, the #1 ranked oil might not be the best in whatever he's testing, but I doubt the bottom ranked oil will outperform it....

Start from the top, and pick the first oil that you can get for little money and effort.

And just for clarification, for other uses or in engines without issues I too believe his list is useless.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
True, the #1 ranked oil might not be the best in whatever he's testing, but I doubt the bottom ranked oil will outperform it....

Start from the top, and pick the first oil that you can get for little money and effort.

And just for clarification, for other uses or in engines without issues I too believe his list is useless.


ZeeOSix's graph shows that picking either the highest ranking, or one in the middle, or the lowest is the same. Actually it is worse than this graph but this is good enough.

 

[SR5]

No !!! Don't RatBlog the poor guy, the OP has only posted 5 times.

OP, everything I read says the new Rotella is just as good of not better than the old Rotella. It still has high zinc, see the VOA link above at 1150 ppm Zinc. It's still JASO MA rated which means it's good for petrol motorcycles with wet clutches.

Rotella 15W40 has worked for you in the past, I see no need to change.

 

[SR5]

Shell Rotella 15W40 specs from their web page
Quote:
CK-4, CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4; ACEA E9; JASO DH-2, MA, MA2; Caterpillar ECF-2, ECF-3; Cummins CES 20086, 81; Detroit Fluids Specification (DFS) 93K222, 93K218; Deutz DQC III-10 LA; MACK EO-S 4.5, EO-O Premium Plus; MAN M3575; MB-Approval 228.31; MTU Category 2.1; Allison TES-439; Volvo VDS-4.5, VDS-4


You can see the CK-4 oil is also JASO MA MA2 approved for motorcycles (petrol/gas engines and wet clutches) so it's also OK for regular cars if you want high zinc.

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
True, the #1 ranked oil might not be the best in whatever he's testing, but I doubt the bottom ranked oil will outperform it....

Start from the top, and pick the first oil that you can get for little money and effort.

And just for clarification, for other uses or in engines without issues I too believe his list is useless.


ZeeOSix's graph shows that picking either the highest ranking, or one in the middle, or the lowest is the same. Actually it is worse than this graph but this is good enough.

where did you get the 30% error from?

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: SR5
No !!! Don't RatBlog the poor guy, the OP has only posted 5 times.

OP, everything I read says the new Rotella is just as good of not better than the old Rotella. It still has high zinc, see the VOA link above at 1150 ppm Zinc. It's still JASO MA rated which means it's good for petrol motorcycles with wet clutches.

Rotella 15W40 has worked for you in the past, I see no need to change.


He said he was using Rotella 15W40. He didn't say how it performed but from what he posted before it seems results weren't 100%.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Shell Rotella 15W40 specs from their web page
Quote:
CK-4, CJ-4, CI-4 Plus, CI-4, CH-4; ACEA E9; JASO DH-2, MA, MA2; Caterpillar ECF-2, ECF-3; Cummins CES 20086, 81; Detroit Fluids Specification (DFS) 93K222, 93K218; Deutz DQC III-10 LA; MACK EO-S 4.5, EO-O Premium Plus; MAN M3575; MB-Approval 228.31; MTU Category 2.1; Allison TES-439; Volvo VDS-4.5, VDS-4


You can see the CK-4 oil is also JASO MA MA2 approved for motorcycles (petrol/gas engines and wet clutches) so it's also OK for regular cars if you want high zinc.


Just to clarify, Rotella 15w40 is NOT approved Jaso MA MA2 for motorcycles. Not to break chops, really, but I can not help but to point out that fact.

Shell Rotella CLAIMS to meet the requirements of Jaso MA/MA2. It is not a certified Jaso oil.

Its important that people understand that they are taking Shells word for the claim as it is not a certified oil.
Nothing at all wrong with that and I guess no reason to doubt them as long as people are aware, it does change things around when considering another HEDO as they will all work fine, its just the other companies dont "claim" MA/MA2.
Maybe they do not want to misled.

I can see no reason to mistrust the Saudi Arabian of which owns 50% of Shell. )

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
[where did you get the 30% error from?

That is the published expected error for the actual ASTM test (which is for gear oil anyway). It's why I said his "results" are worse because he isn't using the actual ASTM equipment. As was pointed out by me and others, there is no way he has anywhere near the significance in his results to show any difference between the oils being tested. All are tied for first place, or last place. Either statement is as correct as the other one.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
where did you get the 30% error from?

30% is being generous. With no published methodology nor anyone else independently checking what he might consider proprietary data and methods, I find it better to discount the data altogether. I've also mentioned in another thread where it was explained away that he keeps the methodology close to his chest because his clients are racers, that perhaps we should take the entire list with a grain of salt. He keeps the methods secret because they're proprietary and doesn't want to give non-customers and the competition an advantage, yet he gives away the results instead, and we should have complete faith that there are no "ringers" in the bottom or "duds" at top?

Note we've also seen oils switch significant numbers of places.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Just to clarify, Rotella 15w40 is NOT approved Jaso MA MA2 for motorcycles. Not to break chops, really, but I can not help but to point out that fact.

Shell Rotella CLAIMS to meet the requirements of Jaso MA/MA2. It is not a certified Jaso oil.

Thanks for the clarification it's good to know, and chops are fine, thanks for asking.