2013 Pentastar engine failure - feedback please

[webfors]

Recently got the news that our 2013 Dodge GC needs a new engine. The adventure began with the check engine light coming on with a code of P0152. I cleared the code and continued on my way. 1200KM later the code came back with some rough idling, hesitation and surging. Made an appointment Friday for first thing Monday.

The dealer called to let us know the left head failed and required replacement. They provided a rental and said it would be ready by the end of the week.

At the end of the week they called to inform us that the engine block had a crack on the left bank and this would require a long block replacement. At first the advisor stated a short block, but he wasn't sure. After asking for clarification our understanding now is that a long block replacement is underway. We are looking at 2-3 weeks while they wait for all the parts to arrive.

The van was a late year 2013 with the HD brakes and has approximately 84,000KM (~52K miles).

I'm looking for feedback regarding further questions to ask the dealer, what parts should I expect replaced vs reused, and parts that I should ask to be replaced since there would be no additional labor (for example drive belts, spark plugs, etc).

Here's some pictures taken today. They were nice enough to leave me with the van in the back lot snapping pictures for 20 minutes.

https://www.dropbox.com/sc/ce0tea32an8ncxx/AAD6iE6pA5PsfDZCbLAHeNoDa

 

[Trav]

Is this under warranty?

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Is this under warranty?


The engine replacement is under warranty. I have no issue with how they dealt with us so far.

 

[Kruse]

Originally Posted By: webfors

The engine replacement is under warranty. I have no issue with how they dealt with us so far.


Did they ask for any maintenance receipts?

 

[bdcardinal]

Obviously I don't know how Chrysler does things, but Ford reman and new longblocks come with spark plugs. If you want new belts or anything else, call the service writer and tell them. Considering the tech is just swapping parts over it makes no difference to them slicing open a box and putting a new one on. Knowing the techs at my work they would rather put on new parts since the odds of a re-check over something silly is a lot lower.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: webfors
Originally Posted By: Trav
Is this under warranty?


The engine replacement is under warranty. I have no issue with how they dealt with us so far.


That's good. You want to look at the flexplate/flywheel, if there are any slightly buggered teeth now would be a good time to swap it if not its fine, I would do the plugs, PCV and belt but the rest of the parts should be okay. I cant see tossing the WP and tensioner at 50K unless there is any visible signs of leakage or loss of tension.

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: Kruse
Originally Posted By: webfors

The engine replacement is under warranty. I have no issue with how they dealt with us so far.


Did they ask for any maintenance receipts?


No receipts requested so far. I'm a DIY oil changer, so they have no record of oil change at the dealership. It should be clear to them by pulling the valve cover that the engine has had regular oil changes.

 

[Trav]

Its not a lubrication failure or sludge so its not interesting.

 

[FlyNavyP3]

In the event these parts don't come ready installed on the new engine here is what I'd personally want if it was mine

Spark plugs
Thermostat
Serpentine belt
Water pump

The remainder of the engine should be all new parts, according to my good friend at Chrysler they don't rebuild any engines, you just get one off the assembly line. If it's for an application that they don't currently support on the production line things like the oil pan engine mounts etc are swapped over from the old engine in order for the new engine to fit the vehicle correctly.

 

[webfors]

Reading over a few forums/articles on this issue where is states poor quality gasoline, environmental conditions (aka heat) and specific use case scenarios as being the 'root cause'. This sounds to me like possible detonation from using low octane (regular) gas under hot/towing conditions. We did a lot of all three I'm sure camping with our pop up trailer (2000 lbs wet) through small towns, up north and out east. Thoughts?

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: FlyNavyP3
In the event these parts don't come ready installed on the new engine here is what I'd personally want if it was mine

Spark plugs
Thermostat
Serpentine belt
Water pump

The remainder of the engine should be all new parts, according to my good friend at Chrysler they don't rebuild any engines, you just get one off the assembly line. If it's for an application that they don't currently support on the production line things like the oil pan engine mounts etc are swapped over from the old engine in order for the new engine to fit the vehicle correctly.


Thank you.

What about engine mounts?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: webfors
Reading over a few forums/articles on this issue where is states poor quality gasoline, environmental conditions (aka heat) and specific use case scenarios as being the 'root cause'. This sounds to me like possible detonation from using low octane (regular) gas under hot/towing conditions. We did a lot of all three I'm sure camping with our pop up trailer (2000 lbs wet) through small towns, up north and out east. Thoughts?


I read that too. I'm wondering if you have an AA, AB, or AC head on that engine? The 2012's had AA heads and they were prone to failure. At some point in 2013 that problem was supposed to have been resolved, but from what I've been told there were several early 2013's produced with the AA and AB heads. There are a handful of 2014's with the problem as well, but I haven't been able to figure out what head they had. It was also stated that the AA and AB heads might have been in limited use in later model years, to use them up.

The left head is buried under the upper intake manifold and does get considerably hotter than the right side. That could be a reason for the failure.

 

[FlyNavyP3]

I absolutely wouldn't bother with engine mounts. Those should have lasted well past 200k so I think it'd be foolish to replace them. I would add a PCV to the list if it's not on the new engine. I should caveat my original post with I'd use OE plugs and water pump, personally I'd use an OE belt as well but that's less of a big deal.

I wouldn't fret that the way you used the vehicle or that the use of regular gas caused the failure or original symptoms. The cylinder head issue was a design issue. The crack in the block doesn't present in a way that detonation damage would and the pistons don't show signs of detonation damage either.

No need to suspect that anything you did caused the failure. When in fact the crack in the deck of the block only revealed itself after the head failed via a known failure mode.

Keep doing what you've been doing when the new engine is in, of note the VWB has kept the inside of your engine nice and clean, I'd stick with it.

Also on the towing front, back in October 2016 I witnessed a Chrysler Town and Country pulling a triple axle Airstream that must've been 26-29' long, in the mountains of Tennessee. Ram work vans are FWD with the same 3.6 engine you have and get loaded and worked heavier than your van is with a pop up camper. Furthermore the same engine goes in a 1500 ram that weighs nearly as much empty as your van does with the camper, and it can still tow and haul over above that. No need to sweat it IMHO.

 

[FlyNavyP3]

Looking closer at the cracked block...

I strongly suspect the mechanic may have done that on disassembly. The hole is elongated in the direction of force like the head was pried to the side with the bolt still in the hole and the head bolts loose or removed. Possible that head bolt was still present, but even with it removed the dowel could've caused the same damage. Perhaps caused by taking a "beat book time" shortcut of removing the head without removing the front cover that bolts up to both heads, the orientation of the crack also supports this theory since the crack is in the direction the head has to be moved to free it from the timing cover.

Hard to say since I wasn't there when it came apart, but my experience tells me that's what happened. Techs get paid by book time so if he can do a job the book says takes 12 hours because the book says you have to pull off all the front dress and timing cover and he can complete the job in 6 because he has a trick, he gets paid for the entire 12 hours regardless.

Looking forward to hearing how it progresses keep me posted.

 

[Trav]

That was my first thought after looking at picture #6 but didn't want to say anything. That's why I asked if its under warranty, no point throwing accusations out there if it is, it worked out better this way but if it wasn't I would sure say something to the dealer.
Just out of curiosity why would you change a WP with only 50K on it are they know to prematurely fail? I mean might as well throw a front transmission seal at it at the same time right if we are changing parts that are not even at 50% of the life expectancy. I know GM specs a min of 112K minimum life expectancy on OE parts I am sure Chrysler and Ford have similar.
Not saying I totally disagree with starting off with a clean slate but to me it seems a little wasteful. JMO.

 

[440Magnum]

The head problem is a known issue with Pentastar engines pretty much through 2013. It is MOST common when the engine is installed in a Jeep Wrangler, for some reason, but happens to vans, Grand Cherokees, and pretty much all applications. Chrysler sent out letters extending full engine coverage to something like 120,000 miles on the engines, we got one for our former 2011 JGC. But that, together with a number of other "first year of a new model" problems with the 2011 prompted us to trade it away much earlier than usual (for us, anyway) for a 2014.

I haven't heard of block issues... EVER. So I do have to wonder if that was a mechanic going gorilla on the head when removing it. Aluminum is not at all forgiving to mishandling, even though its very strong when used as intended.

 

[webfors]

I was wondering when someone would mention that possibility. Pictures #64 and #68 clearly show a depression on the block just to the right of the crack, indicating some force was applied to that area.

Trav, exactly correct. I will not bring it up since this is playing in my favor. If it wasn't under warranty I would be there first thing Monday morning to meet with the service manager.

It's too bad I couldn't get pictures of the head they pulled. The service advisor stated it was 'sent off'. I'll ask again Monday. I will definitely ask to keep the right good head, or least spend an hour with it. I really want to see under the valve cover after 52K miles of VWB at 8-10K OCI's. Ideally I could get pictures of the 'bad' head since the left head runs much hotter.

 

[440Magnum]

I've looked through all the pictures of the head itself, and I'm missing the failure point there. What on the HEAD actually failed?

 

[webfors]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
I've looked through all the pictures of the head itself, and I'm missing the failure point there. What on the HEAD actually failed?



The head that failed isn't in any of the pictures.

 

[KrisZ]

Looks like prying marks on the block.