Here are a set of UOA's from every oil change since the bike was new. Every fill was Honda GN4 10w-30. The oil was sampled for the sake of my own curiosity. None of them are terribly exciting, but maybe worth sharing.
2012 CBR 1000RR GN4 10w-30
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Snipping an image of the PDF is the best I could do for this. The Blackstone comments are always amusing. Also, my name is not really Johnny.
Thanks for sharing UOA. Are you planning to stick to GN4 or try something else too?
you bought some very expensive toilet paper from blackstone
a flash of 450 from GN4?
omg the stoners dropped some of their crack into the sample
you had a range from 375 to 450 with the same amount of fuel....NOT POSSIBLE!!!
and their math (averages) show that they really have smoked too much of that crack as well.
(47+38)/2 = 47....um NOT!!!!
a flash of 450 from GN4?
omg the stoners dropped some of their crack into the sample
you had a range from 375 to 450 with the same amount of fuel....NOT POSSIBLE!!!
and their math (averages) show that they really have smoked too much of that crack as well.
(47+38)/2 = 47....um NOT!!!!
No kidding... Well where do they sell cheaper toilet paper??
ask them this 1 simple question
where did the silver come from in the sample at 11,010 miles?
hmmmm?
its the infamous stoner silver blip
oh and your copper TRIPLED!!! from the 5840 sample to the 16970 sample but didnt go double the miles!
yet iron was the same.
where is the comment on that?
where did the silver come from in the sample at 11,010 miles?
hmmmm?
its the infamous stoner silver blip
oh and your copper TRIPLED!!! from the 5840 sample to the 16970 sample but didnt go double the miles!
yet iron was the same.
where is the comment on that?
Seems the formulation of the oil has changed. Boron is down to 25% of what it has been in all previous samples, calcium is up about 20%.
What OCI does Honda call for with the 1000RR?
My thought is something with a bit more zinc and phosphorus would be fine for your 1000RR. Not that you asked for an opinion...
You can get the same additive package in 10W-40 off the shelf at Walmart in any major oil you want for less than you're paying for GN4, given Honda's formulation.
In January, I did a piston swap to up the compression in my ZRX1200. I ran Valvoline 10W-40 dino motorcycle oil for 1400 miles after the first 100 miles with a 30 wt ND. Sent a sample of the Valvoline into Blackstone last week. Will report the numbers when that comes back.
What OCI does Honda call for with the 1000RR?
My thought is something with a bit more zinc and phosphorus would be fine for your 1000RR. Not that you asked for an opinion...
You can get the same additive package in 10W-40 off the shelf at Walmart in any major oil you want for less than you're paying for GN4, given Honda's formulation.
In January, I did a piston swap to up the compression in my ZRX1200. I ran Valvoline 10W-40 dino motorcycle oil for 1400 miles after the first 100 miles with a 30 wt ND. Sent a sample of the Valvoline into Blackstone last week. Will report the numbers when that comes back.
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Now I have to doubt the integrity of Blackstone? Ugh What's this world coming to?
Honda calls for an OCI of 8000 on the CBR with 30wt. I'm haven't gone much past 3000 yet, but I'm tempted to go for much more if I can be confident enough of good protection, good shift quality & clutch feel. Smooth shifting seems to degrade well before anything else. It's not as fun to ride once the shifting becomes fussy.
A gallon of GN4 goes for about $30. Almost $60 for their synthetic HP4S. No thanks on that, but I can stomach $30. Right now, I'm running T6 (40wt), and my only gripe is the clutch feel. Not as grabby as GN4. I'd like to break free of the GN4 goat rope, but I'm not sure there's much to be gained by either a) paying more for fancier motorcycle oils -OR- b) experimenting with cheaper diesel/auto oils bearing JASO MA.
Honda calls for an OCI of 8000 on the CBR with 30wt. I'm haven't gone much past 3000 yet, but I'm tempted to go for much more if I can be confident enough of good protection, good shift quality & clutch feel. Smooth shifting seems to degrade well before anything else. It's not as fun to ride once the shifting becomes fussy.
A gallon of GN4 goes for about $30. Almost $60 for their synthetic HP4S. No thanks on that, but I can stomach $30. Right now, I'm running T6 (40wt), and my only gripe is the clutch feel. Not as grabby as GN4. I'd like to break free of the GN4 goat rope, but I'm not sure there's much to be gained by either a) paying more for fancier motorcycle oils -OR- b) experimenting with cheaper diesel/auto oils bearing JASO MA.
My mistake, my eyes saw 10w30 and my brain told my hands 10w40. The sample you have analyzed at 11,010 miles shows a good TBN. It's getting changed too soon for $3 a gallon or $30 a gallon. Rotella 10W-30 Dino is half the price for a gallon and top-notch stuff, as an option. Or for $30 a gallon, you could spend another $6 for 4 quarts of Mobil 1 10W40 4T full syn. Very good oil and easily will go longer than your current oil change interval. Just offering suggestions and I'm sure you have thought through this stuff many times.
Here is a VOA copied from this site. The rating on the bottle means nada in terms of whether this oil is suitable for use in a bike. Look at the analysis compared to GN4 Honda oil and it shows they are very similar. There is nothing that would not show in an analysis that would be different between the oil's. It's smoke and mirrors about motorcycle specific oil when it comes to added benefit for the additional cost. That is what analysis bears out. With that said, I will run MC specific oil when I find it on sale. Nothing wrong with MC specific oil except the price.
Rotella T 10w30 Dino VOA
Aluminum 0
Chromium 0
Iron 1
Copper 0
Lead 0
Tin 0
Molybdenum 0
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 0
Boron 29
Silicon 4
Sodium 3
Calcium 1944
Magnesium 6
Phosphorus 893
Zinc 1008
Barium 0
Sus@210F 64.8 should be 59 - 66
FlashInF 425 should be > 400
Fuel% - should be < 1.0
Antifreeze% - should be 0
Water% 0.0 should be 0.0
Insolubles% 0.0 should be < 0.7
TBN 10.8
Here is a VOA copied from this site. The rating on the bottle means nada in terms of whether this oil is suitable for use in a bike. Look at the analysis compared to GN4 Honda oil and it shows they are very similar. There is nothing that would not show in an analysis that would be different between the oil's. It's smoke and mirrors about motorcycle specific oil when it comes to added benefit for the additional cost. That is what analysis bears out. With that said, I will run MC specific oil when I find it on sale. Nothing wrong with MC specific oil except the price.
Rotella T 10w30 Dino VOA
Aluminum 0
Chromium 0
Iron 1
Copper 0
Lead 0
Tin 0
Molybdenum 0
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 0
Boron 29
Silicon 4
Sodium 3
Calcium 1944
Magnesium 6
Phosphorus 893
Zinc 1008
Barium 0
Sus@210F 64.8 should be 59 - 66
FlashInF 425 should be > 400
Fuel% - should be < 1.0
Antifreeze% - should be 0
Water% 0.0 should be 0.0
Insolubles% 0.0 should be < 0.7
TBN 10.8
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except that ALL of his uoa's show his oil to be 20wt!!!
an oil must be at 9.3cst or 56.7954susvis to be a 30wt.
NONE of his are
tbn isnt worth a bucket that is half full of dino wizz if it dont shift worth a darn
or the clutch feels like i've rolled 7 at the tables in LV.
10w30 in one of these motors just isnt smart unless you have an oil sponsor and in which case you arent running 10wXX anyway
his 6 uoa's of gn4 10w30 prove its not up to the task of 3000mi in this motor
an oil must be at 9.3cst or 56.7954susvis to be a 30wt.
NONE of his are
tbn isnt worth a bucket that is half full of dino wizz if it dont shift worth a darn
or the clutch feels like i've rolled 7 at the tables in LV.
10w30 in one of these motors just isnt smart unless you have an oil sponsor and in which case you arent running 10wXX anyway
his 6 uoa's of gn4 10w30 prove its not up to the task of 3000mi in this motor
Originally Posted By: sunruh
except that ALL of his uoa's show his oil to be 20wt!!!
an oil must be at 9.3cst or 56.7954susvis to be a 30wt.
NONE of his are
tbn isnt worth a bucket that is half full of dino wizz if it dont shift worth a darn
or the clutch feels like i've rolled 7 at the tables in LV.
10w30 in one of these motors just isnt smart unless you have an oil sponsor and in which case you arent running 10wXX anyway
his 6 uoa's of gn4 10w30 prove its not up to the task of 3000mi in this motor
Good discussion, that's pointing out some good information. I gathered Honda is specifying a 10W30 for that engine and his riding conditions based upon using it for the life of the engine so far? The wear numbers are in great shape so the shearing is inconsequential, then that makes it all about the shift quality.
My experience with 30,000 miles of oil analysis in my ZRX 1200 is oils are going to shear down a grade in a shared clutch/ transmission system given enough time. As we are both saying, it's just a matter of at what mileage the oil shears. When oil in the ZRX goes below 40wt, shifting goes downhill. Honda probably is good with a 30 wt to begin with as they may have a nicer fit and finish to the tranny than an older Kawasaki.
The only two oils I have tested that did not shear were the Rotella 15W40 T5 Syn blend I ran for 3,700 miles and Castrol 20w50 dino MC oil I ran after that for 3,000 miles. Shifting remained great with those oils, as well as the M1 15W50 I ran for 4090 miles, but the M1 had sheared down to a 40 wt. The other 15w40 Dino oils when I went about 4000 miles sheared down one grade, and the one oil I went a bit over 5,000 miles with (Rotella T6 full syn 5W40) sheared down one grade.
Definitely all oils shifter great when new, and the ones that were 40 or 50 wt and stayed in grade shifted fine the whole time, as well as the M1 15w50 that sheared down to 40 wt.
My 1980 Yamaha XS 1100 loses shift quality around 2500 to 3000 miles, I run 20w50 dino oil (spec is 20w40) in that because I can't get the benefit of longer oil change intervals that synthetic brings. The old air cooled lump contaminates oil a whole lot faster because of looser tolerances necessary for an air cooled engine and run a [censored] ton hotter overall which kills oil. Yamaha recommends 2500 mile OCI's as well.
V1, you could easily run Honda GN4 10w40 in your bike since you like the Honda oil, and most likely go longer before changing, and not lose shift quality as you indicate shifting goes south as the oil gets older and is sheared down to 20wt.
except that ALL of his uoa's show his oil to be 20wt!!!
an oil must be at 9.3cst or 56.7954susvis to be a 30wt.
NONE of his are
tbn isnt worth a bucket that is half full of dino wizz if it dont shift worth a darn
or the clutch feels like i've rolled 7 at the tables in LV.
10w30 in one of these motors just isnt smart unless you have an oil sponsor and in which case you arent running 10wXX anyway
his 6 uoa's of gn4 10w30 prove its not up to the task of 3000mi in this motor
Good discussion, that's pointing out some good information. I gathered Honda is specifying a 10W30 for that engine and his riding conditions based upon using it for the life of the engine so far? The wear numbers are in great shape so the shearing is inconsequential, then that makes it all about the shift quality.
My experience with 30,000 miles of oil analysis in my ZRX 1200 is oils are going to shear down a grade in a shared clutch/ transmission system given enough time. As we are both saying, it's just a matter of at what mileage the oil shears. When oil in the ZRX goes below 40wt, shifting goes downhill. Honda probably is good with a 30 wt to begin with as they may have a nicer fit and finish to the tranny than an older Kawasaki.
The only two oils I have tested that did not shear were the Rotella 15W40 T5 Syn blend I ran for 3,700 miles and Castrol 20w50 dino MC oil I ran after that for 3,000 miles. Shifting remained great with those oils, as well as the M1 15W50 I ran for 4090 miles, but the M1 had sheared down to a 40 wt. The other 15w40 Dino oils when I went about 4000 miles sheared down one grade, and the one oil I went a bit over 5,000 miles with (Rotella T6 full syn 5W40) sheared down one grade.
Definitely all oils shifter great when new, and the ones that were 40 or 50 wt and stayed in grade shifted fine the whole time, as well as the M1 15w50 that sheared down to 40 wt.
My 1980 Yamaha XS 1100 loses shift quality around 2500 to 3000 miles, I run 20w50 dino oil (spec is 20w40) in that because I can't get the benefit of longer oil change intervals that synthetic brings. The old air cooled lump contaminates oil a whole lot faster because of looser tolerances necessary for an air cooled engine and run a [censored] ton hotter overall which kills oil. Yamaha recommends 2500 mile OCI's as well.
V1, you could easily run Honda GN4 10w40 in your bike since you like the Honda oil, and most likely go longer before changing, and not lose shift quality as you indicate shifting goes south as the oil gets older and is sheared down to 20wt.
I forget, sunruh, is your premise that:
A) Honda hates its customers so much that it specifies deficient oil so that their bikes wear out prematurely,
B) Honda is too retarded to know that the oil they buy & brand (and everything else in the grade(s) they specify) shears down quickly,
C) Honda doesn't employ a single lubrication engineer, or doesn't listen to them,
D) Something else.
I don't come here often enough to recall. I know you don't like 10W30s in shared-sump bikes, I just don't remember why you think Honda recommends them when you consider them so obviously deficient. I also don't remember why you consider them so obviously deficient.
A) Honda hates its customers so much that it specifies deficient oil so that their bikes wear out prematurely,
B) Honda is too retarded to know that the oil they buy & brand (and everything else in the grade(s) they specify) shears down quickly,
C) Honda doesn't employ a single lubrication engineer, or doesn't listen to them,
D) Something else.
I don't come here often enough to recall. I know you don't like 10W30s in shared-sump bikes, I just don't remember why you think Honda recommends them when you consider them so obviously deficient. I also don't remember why you consider them so obviously deficient.
E) all but D
shops make a lot of money selling parts - any brand
if a mfg calls for a oci of 8k and the oil is out of grade by 3k
what would it be at in another 5k? (ie more than double its out of grade milage)
would you really want to follow that oci?
do you normally take something 100+% past its worn out point?
if your milk says best by Mar 31 do you still drink it on April 30?
if not why not? you are doing that with your oil in that motor that sits between your ankles
shops make a lot of money selling parts - any brand
if a mfg calls for a oci of 8k and the oil is out of grade by 3k
what would it be at in another 5k? (ie more than double its out of grade milage)
would you really want to follow that oci?
do you normally take something 100+% past its worn out point?
if your milk says best by Mar 31 do you still drink it on April 30?
if not why not? you are doing that with your oil in that motor that sits between your ankles
I don't think Honda is concerned about shift quality for the end user of their product as it relates to oil shear. The fact the bike shifts smooth and slick with new oil shows nothing is wrong with the bike. Honda wants the engine to hold up and last so they don't have warranty claims and such. It would be very easy for a person to run 8000 miles within the first year on one oil change after the initial service. If it was going to kill the engines Honda would not recommemd that, period.
I would speculate Honda is well aware the oil shears down and knows that is not a detriment to internal longevity of their engines. Literally hundred of thousands of oil analysis show motorcycle oils shear in every shared sump while wear numbers stay low, nothing new here...
Most analysis I have read state, ad nauseum, "..the oil has sheared down one grade, wear metals appear normal...". As well, I have never seen an oil report where the oil has sheared down two grades. If it exists it is definitely an exception rather than the rule. I feel it is well documented that oil shears most early on and once the viscosity index improvers shear to a certain point, they don't shear appreciably past that.
I agree the oil shearing down is not something we like to hear or like to see in an analysis. However if only shift quality is what we are truly dealing with, then Honda and any other manufacture is not out of their skull when recommending longer oil change intervals from a mechanical protection standpoint, which behind closed doors is all the corporate bean counters want.
I would speculate Honda is well aware the oil shears down and knows that is not a detriment to internal longevity of their engines. Literally hundred of thousands of oil analysis show motorcycle oils shear in every shared sump while wear numbers stay low, nothing new here...
Most analysis I have read state, ad nauseum, "..the oil has sheared down one grade, wear metals appear normal...". As well, I have never seen an oil report where the oil has sheared down two grades. If it exists it is definitely an exception rather than the rule. I feel it is well documented that oil shears most early on and once the viscosity index improvers shear to a certain point, they don't shear appreciably past that.
I agree the oil shearing down is not something we like to hear or like to see in an analysis. However if only shift quality is what we are truly dealing with, then Honda and any other manufacture is not out of their skull when recommending longer oil change intervals from a mechanical protection standpoint, which behind closed doors is all the corporate bean counters want.
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Originally Posted By: sunruh
E) all but D
shops make a lot of money selling parts - any brand
if a mfg calls for a oci of 8k and the oil is out of grade by 3k
what would it be at in another 5k? (ie more than double its out of grade milage)
would you really want to follow that oci?
do you normally take something 100+% past its worn out point?
if your milk says best by Mar 31 do you still drink it on April 30?
if not why not? you are doing that with your oil in that motor that sits between your ankles
Okay, thanks. I don't agree with most (any?) of the premise(s) you advance here based on both analytical and field experience, but I am glad to better understand where you're coming from.
E) all but D
shops make a lot of money selling parts - any brand
if a mfg calls for a oci of 8k and the oil is out of grade by 3k
what would it be at in another 5k? (ie more than double its out of grade milage)
would you really want to follow that oci?
do you normally take something 100+% past its worn out point?
if your milk says best by Mar 31 do you still drink it on April 30?
if not why not? you are doing that with your oil in that motor that sits between your ankles
Okay, thanks. I don't agree with most (any?) of the premise(s) you advance here based on both analytical and field experience, but I am glad to better understand where you're coming from.
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