ACEA C3 where C4 is required?

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Hi there,

In the '13 Koleos diesel (DPF) engine, 5W30 ACEA C4 RN0720 is required. The same engine without DPF requires 5W40 A3/B4 RN0710.

However, before year 2008, for that same DPF engine, ACEA C3 (RN0710) was required. Well... maybe the DPF got enhanced after. But I see many others makes running standard C2 or C3... KIA, Hyundai, PSA, ... Maybe RN0720 is overkill but necessary for the 30000km factory OCI (15000km severe service).

C4 is always coupled with RN0720 and 5 liters costs approx. EUR 50.
I can get C3, 5 liters for EUR 25. I need 7.4 liters to fill up after drain and filter change. I add maybe 2 liters max in 20000km OCI.

Am at a real risk of doing premature engine failure (aside from killing dpf) switching to C3 now? 120000km, door-to-door driving 7/14 days, eco remap, EGR OFF, need to keep this running at least to 300000km. If the dpf fails i will remove it and map it out (DPF OFF).
 
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The categories within the C class are devided along SAPS limits and along HTHS viscosities. C1 and C4 are low-SAPS oils, while C2 and C3 are mid-SAPS oils. On the other hand C1 and C2 oils have lower HTHS viscosities, while C3 and C4 oils have higher HTHS viscosities. The C5 category that has been newly introduced in the ACEA 2016 sequences has even lower limit for HTHS viscosity.


A3/B4 is high SAPS and high HTHS
C3 is mid SAPS and high HTHS
C4 is low SAPS and high HTHS.

So going from C4 to C3, I don't see any risk of engine damage, any issues should be with the exhaust system.
 
I might switch to C3 and ditch the DPF when it will be uncleanable. I'll then save my engine life with the benefit of less oil contamination from gasoil during DPF regens and hopefully keep the car running as long as possible.
 
and after the dpf is gone, you could use A3/B4 oil. or you could do it now if you're already decided to remove the dpf anyway. The sooner you start using the cheaper oil, the more you can save.
 
I will go to C3/VW504/507 and see what happens for the record
smile.gif
I'll keep DPF till it fails, the sooner I'll pay to get it mapped out... maybe something will pop before that (car crash, fire, stolen, whatever)
 
If the engine uses no oil. I can't see how it would cause any issues any time soon anyway?

Same reason I'm scratching my head with my current oil decision. That and Ford doesn't even specify a low/mid saps oil for my car with a DPF.
 
Originally Posted By: Bailes1992
If the engine uses no oil. I can't see how it would cause any issues any time soon anyway?

Same reason I'm scratching my head with my current oil decision. That and Ford doesn't even specify a low/mid saps oil for my car with a DPF.

What engine do you have?
 
Ican't understand the purpose of the C3 oils either. if your car doesn't consume oil during changes why taking the risk with a inferior C3 oil? I find B4 oils better. i use my car everyday and change oil every 10.000 kms. why bother with a more expensive oil? for example, my motor is with DPF and no DPF. for non-equipped with DPF the only choice is 10or15w40 B4. with dpf, 5w30 c3..the same code motor..what should i do?
 
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Originally Posted By: Bailes1992
If the engine uses no oil. I can't see how it would cause any issues any time soon anyway?

Same reason I'm scratching my head with my current oil decision. That and Ford doesn't even specify a low/mid saps oil for my car with a DPF.

What engine do you have?


I have a Ford 1.5TDCi Euro 6. Basically a Peugeot/Ford 1.6HDi/TDCi with smaller bores.
 
the more ZDDP reserve you have, the better. C3 oils have less ZDDP than A3/B4.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0043164813002810

Quote:
Ryason et al. [9] concluded that soot particles were abrasive based on observed scars and debris generated between metallic test surfaces. However, experiments conducted by Rounds [10] using contaminated oil from a diesel engine showed that the soot reduced the effectiveness of the antiwear additive by preferentially adsorbing the active antiwear additive components before they can form the essential antiwear surface coating. This is rather than removing the surface coatings by abrasion after they are formed.
 
Also, C3 oils contain less detergents, and it has been shown that detergents can form a tribofilm in case zddp is depleted.

https://books.google.be/books?id=i5nolx6...oot&f=false

Page 27.

Also check page 38/39

Regular and timely changing of the oil so you can never bind all zddp with soot or deplete all detergent (low TBN) is key to keep a diesel engine going.

Also, I've found that if the soot levels rise beyond what the dispersant can handle (that should be equal between A3/B4 and C3) you're more likely to get leaky oil seals. Presumably the agglomerated soot destroys (crankshaft) seals really quickly.
 
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Regular and timely changing of the oil so you can never bind all zddp with soot or deplete all detergent (low TBN) is key to keep a diesel engine going.

Also, I've found that if the soot levels rise beyond what the dispersant can handle (that should be equal between A3/B4 and C3) you're more likely to get leaky oil seals. Presumably the agglomerated soot destroys (crankshaft) seals really quickly.


The car is specced for 30000km (18600 miles) regular or 15000km (9300 miles) severe service. We bought the car used (demo vehicle) after one year and 25000km. Then I've done OC myself every 15000km : 40k, 55, 70, 85, 100. In that time at 90000km I had it ecomapped (+EGR OFF) and seen at 100000km OC that the oil was less opaque and seemed still correct, so I pushed it to 20000km next OC.

Now I filled with C3/VW504-507/BMW LL04/MB229.51 cheap oil. I changed the filter (as usual) but kept it on the shelf in case someone here want pictures (but the media is black now, what do we have to see?). Do you think this engine can benefit from 10k oil change (20k filter) ? Should this really prolong the life of the engine and its turbo?

Alongside, I can't find anywhere what are the technical specs of RN0720.
 
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I suppose 15K is more than adequate. We have a 10 Kangoo 1.5 di with 470K. 20K OCI all the time with oils ranging from Renault approved to the E6. Original turbo, no smoke whatsoever. Original gearbox.

Unfortunately pretty much everything else failed. Even the column stalk.
 
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Originally Posted By: chrisri
I suppose 15K is more than adequate. We have a 10 Kangoo 1.5 di with 470K. 20K OCI all the time with oils ranging from Renault approved to the E6. Original turbo, no smoke whatsoever. Original gearbox.

Unfortunately pretty much everything else failed. Even the column stalk.


Interesting ! But no DPF on these Kangoos? I might stay on 20k OCI on the Koleos then. Unfortunately I already spotted leaks everywhere from AT, AWD transfer box, rear diff... nothing drippy but a film of oil sticking on metal from the edge of a seal to some inches round. I guess I'd have to drain and fill soon and then check level on a regular basis... even have oil leaks on the intake hose between turbo and intercooler (same kind of oil presence at each end of rubber tubing where it slips-on metal parts).

Column stalk seems to be a weak point on many Renaults...
 
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Originally Posted By: Superflan
Unfortunately I already spotted leaks everywhere from AT, AWD transfer box, rear diff... nothing drippy but a film of oil sticking on metal from the edge of a seal to some inches round........... even have oil leaks on the intake hose between turbo and intercooler (same kind of oil presence at each end of rubber tubing where it slips-on metal parts).

Does factory recommend generally low viscoisty grade types ?
 
Yes, it's a pre DPF car. I have to say I'm pretty impressed how powertrain performed. We certainly did not expect that from a Renault diesel, especially tiny 1.5.

It did have tonnes of other problems, like the previously mentioned column stalk (it went with good amount of smoke), alternator ( replaced with aftermarket unit, now the BC doesn't recognise the unit and will throw a code and stop light on instrument panel after 15 min of driving, but working normal). Rear hubs/ bearings and discs are all one item. Expensive.
Then there was master cylinder(both), slave cylinder, and now car needs complete front suspension overhaul.

Still I prefer it to the new Partner that replaced that Kangoo.
 
Leaks you have mentioned are usual TBH. Lightly oily turbo manifolds are normal. So is the gearbox/differential/transferbox. Not ideal but acceptable and normal. When it starts to drip then it's time to react.
 
Every renault engine that comes in (Mitubishi used to have renault diesels in some cars) is wet from oil. They last a long time and are often nice to drive considering their power output, but it seems they can't keep their oil inside...
 
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