Residual Water

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: Skid
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
it's simple. Find out the cooling system capacity (your local Napa has a book that list the capacity). Add half that amount in pure 100% coolant. Then finish the fill with distilled water.


That will be close enough (if you drain both radiator and block), but it will be below 50-50 because volumes are not additive. Chemistry 101.


Please explain ?

If your system holds 4 gallons, and you've flushed with water...then you put in 2 gallons of pure A/F, then how does that end up less than 50% ?

 

[Skid]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Skid
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
it's simple. Find out the cooling system capacity (your local Napa has a book that list the capacity). Add half that amount in pure 100% coolant. Then finish the fill with distilled water.


That will be close enough (if you drain both radiator and block), but it will be below 50-50 because volumes are not additive. Chemistry 101.


Please explain ?

If your system holds 4 gallons, and you've flushed with water...then you put in 2 gallons of pure A/F, then how does that end up less than 50% ?


Because you need more than 2 gallons of concentrate and more than 2 gallons of water to make 4 gallons of 50-50 mix.

You can add masses (masses are always additive), but not volumes. Chemistry 101. You can look up "partial molar volume" if you want to read up on it.

So, if you add 2 gallons of coolant concentrate first then fill to 4 gallons with water, there will be more than 2 gallons of water. If you do the reverse, 2 gallons of water first, then the rest with coolant concentrate, then there will be more than 2 gallons of coolant concentrate added.

Anyway, it's close enough for government work. I wouldn't fret it, but the science wasn't right, so I commented.

 

[Shannow]

Cool, never thought of it that way...

 

[mjoekingz28]

Originally Posted By: Skid
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Skid
Originally Posted By: JimPghPA
it's simple. Find out the cooling system capacity (your local Napa has a book that list the capacity). Add half that amount in pure 100% coolant. Then finish the fill with distilled water.


That will be close enough (if you drain both radiator and block), but it will be below 50-50 because volumes are not additive. Chemistry 101.


Please explain ?

If your system holds 4 gallons, and you've flushed with water...then you put in 2 gallons of pure A/F, then how does that end up less than 50% ?


Because you need more than 2 gallons of concentrate and more than 2 gallons of water to make 4 gallons of 50-50 mix.





Please explain again.... If 2 plus 2 equals four, I can only assume it doesnt when the mixture 'cooks down'. Like I added a quart of milk to a skilled and am left with a pint of evaporated milk.



Is that what you are saying? What is this additive you speak of? Eight quarts of antifreeze added to eight quarts of water is somehow different than eight quarts of water added to eight quarts of antifreeze?



Shannow seems to get it, but I never took chemistry so I will try to reserve doubt.

 

[Shannow]

mjoekingz28,



and yeah, it escaped me entirely in the first point...always put in the requisite volume of concentrate, and topped it up with water...although never getting below 18F, it would never make a difference.

 

[mjoekingz28]

Thank you so much!

I watched another of her videos. She is my age (1 year older).

I didn't think much could compare to mathematics and physics- but I am quickly finding chemistry and metallurgy to be great as well.








Btw, Shannow....we rarely get that cold either, but my owner's manual stresses several times something like to use a 50/50 mixture to make the engine, temp sensor and computer all satisfied. So, I just use my two meters. One has floating balls, the other a swinging arm. I think -34F is the aim to indicate 50/50.

 

[Silverado12]

Originally Posted By: JBinKC
To share my experience I had a supposed 50/50 mix fail done 8 months prior at -20 F in a 1978 Malibu after I flushed and filled years ago that is why I am inquiring.



I had the same thing happen with my 1970 Camaro. Lucky for me it didn't break anything; the antifreeze just turned into a slushy. Those small blocks of that era would not drain all the fluids through the lower hose or radiator petcock. I would flush those and then fill w/straight antifreeze and even then it was barely a 50/50 mix.

 

[mjoekingz28]

Shannow and Skid,

I would like to further this discussion.

About the video.

Say we fill the bottle with water, then add equal parts alcohol.......what will the ratio be?

Then, we fill the bottle with alcohol, then add equal parts water....what will the ratio be?



Why would(if) it be different depending on the order of the mixture as Skid seemed to have pointed out in his post #4340478 about 2+2 being different depending on which is added first?

 

[propuckstopper]

Originally Posted By: PumpPusher
Originally Posted By: propuckstopper
Originally Posted By: Starman2112
Why not just play it safe by mixing the coolant and distilled water before pouring them into the engine?


Correct. You can even use a cheap water pitcher to do this task. Many cheap dollar store pitchers have graduation marks on the side. Pour a given amount of 100% concentrate into the pitcher, then an equal amount of water. Pretty simple deal.

When your original 100% concentrate jug is down to half (or close), simply fill the jug back up to the original fill amount. Presto, you have 50/50 (or close).



I like that but how do you account for the water that doesn't drain completely?


I don't know what you mean. Do you mean account for the water that doesn't drain completely out of the engine?

I am not sure this has any relevance. I am just using the dollar store pitcher to establish an accurate 50/50 mix. You then take that mix and pour it into the radiator.

 

[PumpPusher]

Originally Posted By: propuckstopper
Originally Posted By: PumpPusher
Originally Posted By: propuckstopper
Originally Posted By: Starman2112
Why not just play it safe by mixing the coolant and distilled water before pouring them into the engine?


Correct. You can even use a cheap water pitcher to do this task. Many cheap dollar store pitchers have graduation marks on the side. Pour a given amount of 100% concentrate into the pitcher, then an equal amount of water. Pretty simple deal.

When your original 100% concentrate jug is down to half (or close), simply fill the jug back up to the original fill amount. Presto, you have 50/50 (or close).



I like that but how do you account for the water that doesn't drain completely?


I don't know what you mean. Do you mean account for the water that doesn't drain completely out of the engine?

I am not sure this has any relevance. I am just using the dollar store pitcher to establish an accurate 50/50 mix. You then take that mix and pour it into the radiator.

Let's say you add exactly 50/50 mix. There is water that will be left in the block no matter how long you drain it. Once you add the 50/50, it will mix with the residual water and dilute the concentration even more. My truck has a total of 8 gallons. After I drain it out, I add 4 gallons of 100% coolant and 3 gallons of distilled to fill it. That means that one gallon is already in the system.

 

[Brad_C]

Actually you'll find most anti-freeze manufacturers specify their mix by component volume. So 50/50 is *really* 2 gallons of this and 2 gallons of that.
50/50 works out at 51.48/48.52 after contraction, but that's not important as they specified the mix by absolute volume.

Here's one of the many commonly available tables expanding on this : Automotive Antifreeze

Asking your average garage gronk to measure out by mass or calculate volume reduction is stretching it, so the calcs are just specified simply.

 

[KrisZ]

Originally Posted By: Brad_C
Actually you'll find most anti-freeze manufacturers specify their mix by component volume. So 50/50 is *really* 2 gallons of this and 2 gallons of that.
50/50 works out at 51.48/48.52 after contraction, but that's not important as they specified the mix by absolute volume.

Here's one of the many commonly available tables expanding on this : Automotive Antifreeze

Asking your average garage gronk to measure out by mass or calculate volume reduction is stretching it, so the calcs are just specified simply.



I agree with this.
Even if the mixing specification is not done by % of volume, we are still splitting hair when it comes to water and glycol.

 

[supton]

If it matters that much, why not do a drain&fill on the radiator after a short while? It's a bit wasteful on the coolant, but if you keep dumping in a 50/50 mix the coolant in the system will head towards 50/50.

 

[doitmyself]

Very late to the discussion here. As Brad C. and KrisZ point out, this splitting hairs does NOT matter that much for our applications. It is an academic discussion.

But, to add something useful to the OP's question about residual water left in the engine block after a good flush, over many years I have experienced huge differences in what owners manuals state is total capacity vs. what is true total capacity. I have had instances where the final concentration was off more than 20% after taking into account the owners manual stated total capacity.

Most (maybe all) of the problems were not vehicles, but rather farm tractors or industrial equipment (generators). Although, I did have a difference of about 10% off on at least one mini van when using the "total capacity" method. Why?? John Deere has been horrible in my applications with making outright mistakes in their owners manuals. I have contacted corporate JD and was informed that indeed they were wrong. Other mfg. (Kohler Industrial Generator) had no explanation other than maybe the use of different and/or additional components (i.e. radiator) over the course of years.

I found this out when my gypo dial type device failed and I purchased an accurate refractometer........something every OCD bitoger should own.

Point is: be careful trusting owners manual capacities, especially if modifications are possible on your vehicles and equipment.