Nice to see an oil getting happy with its engine
Corvette UA0 with Redline 5w30: High Lead
- Thread starter Dirty_Howie
- Start date
Haven't forgot about this. But not putting on as many miles as I used to. Still have about 500 miles and a couple of AutoX events to go. Hopefully will put up another boring Blackstone report .........
DH
DH
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: miami993
Originally Posted By: CT8
The lead may not be wear. But I agree with you 100%.
Christian
Huh ????
I see that I'm very late to the Red Line uoa lead party, but I just wanted to note that there are some good older posts here about the RL "scavenging" phenomenon and it not necessarily representing engine wear.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=51602
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/77452/1
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=856742
I seem to also recall other threads with direct quotes from RL but I couldn't find them. RL should come with a warning not to perform uoa's without professional uoa interpretation. There are several more threads here that you can find with a google search.
That said, Mobil1 is an excellent choice but I don't think that folks should interpret the uoa's to mean that there is more wear with RL than M1.
Originally Posted By: miami993
Originally Posted By: CT8
The lead may not be wear. But I agree with you 100%.
Christian
Huh ????
I see that I'm very late to the Red Line uoa lead party, but I just wanted to note that there are some good older posts here about the RL "scavenging" phenomenon and it not necessarily representing engine wear.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=51602
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/77452/1
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=856742
I seem to also recall other threads with direct quotes from RL but I couldn't find them. RL should come with a warning not to perform uoa's without professional uoa interpretation. There are several more threads here that you can find with a google search.
That said, Mobil1 is an excellent choice but I don't think that folks should interpret the uoa's to mean that there is more wear with RL than M1.
Originally Posted By: bluesubie
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: miami993
Originally Posted By: CT8
The lead may not be wear. But I agree with you 100%.
Christian
Huh ????
I see that I'm very late to the Red Line uoa lead party, but I just wanted to note that there are some good older posts here about the RL "scavenging" phenomenon and it not necessarily representing engine wear.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=51602
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/77452/1
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=856742
I seem to also recall other threads with direct quotes from RL but I couldn't find them. RL should come with a warning not to perform uoa's without professional uoa interpretation. There are several more threads here that you can find with a google search.
That said, Mobil1 is an excellent choice but I don't think that folks should interpret the uoa's to mean that there is more wear with RL than M1.
Thanks for the links, interesting reading. I'm definitely going to stick with Mobil as long as my lead stays low ........
DH
Originally Posted By: Dirty_Howie
Originally Posted By: miami993
Originally Posted By: CT8
The lead may not be wear. But I agree with you 100%.
Christian
Huh ????
I see that I'm very late to the Red Line uoa lead party, but I just wanted to note that there are some good older posts here about the RL "scavenging" phenomenon and it not necessarily representing engine wear.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=51602
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/77452/1
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=856742
I seem to also recall other threads with direct quotes from RL but I couldn't find them. RL should come with a warning not to perform uoa's without professional uoa interpretation. There are several more threads here that you can find with a google search.
That said, Mobil1 is an excellent choice but I don't think that folks should interpret the uoa's to mean that there is more wear with RL than M1.
Thanks for the links, interesting reading. I'm definitely going to stick with Mobil as long as my lead stays low ........
DH
It's hard to compare Mobil to Redline. As mentioned the Redline is an ester based oil with a high film strength (HTHS) and excellent cleaning abilities. There was a member here (Molecule?) that was an oil chemist that was very fond of Redline an normally recommended a weight drop from recommended due to the high HTHS value. IIRC Redline 5w20 has a higher film strength than Mobil 5w30.
I didn't read all 14 pages but how many Redline intervals did you run? If after 3 or 4 the numbers didn't look normal then I'd switch for sure.
I didn't read all 14 pages but how many Redline intervals did you run? If after 3 or 4 the numbers didn't look normal then I'd switch for sure.
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Originally Posted By: 97 GTP
It's hard to compare Mobil to Redline. As mentioned the Redline is an ester based oil with a high film strength (HTHS) and excellent cleaning abilities. There was a member here (Molecule?) that was an oil chemist that was very fond of Redline an normally recommended a weight drop from recommended due to the high HTHS value. IIRC Redline 5w20 has a higher film strength than Mobil 5w30.
I didn't read all 14 pages but how many Redline intervals did you run? If after 3 or 4 the numbers didn't look normal then I'd switch for sure.
I started using Redline on first fill after I bought the car with 18K miles on it.
The first 4 fills with elevated LEAD were with Redline 5w30
The subsequent fills were with Mobil 0w40.
You can see the dramatic trend which has continued, the soon as I switched.
Thanks for your input.
DH
It's hard to compare Mobil to Redline. As mentioned the Redline is an ester based oil with a high film strength (HTHS) and excellent cleaning abilities. There was a member here (Molecule?) that was an oil chemist that was very fond of Redline an normally recommended a weight drop from recommended due to the high HTHS value. IIRC Redline 5w20 has a higher film strength than Mobil 5w30.
I didn't read all 14 pages but how many Redline intervals did you run? If after 3 or 4 the numbers didn't look normal then I'd switch for sure.
I started using Redline on first fill after I bought the car with 18K miles on it.
The first 4 fills with elevated LEAD were with Redline 5w30
The subsequent fills were with Mobil 0w40.
You can see the dramatic trend which has continued, the soon as I switched.
Thanks for your input.
DH
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Is it possible that this was just break-in wear reducing over time?
Never used Redline, so not here to defend them, but if you calculate the oil changes to all be 3500 miles, like the one at 25,900 miles, It looks like a fairly linear drop in lead. Assuming linear wear change related to miles, which is probably not accurate. And doesn't account for how it was driven each OCI. For instance, lead dropped 8 between the 3500 OCI, and the 4300 OCI on Redline, so hard to figure causes for drops/increases on UOA numbers.
Here is what I came up with after changing them to all be for 3500 miles (Report miles - adjusted Lead level):
3500 Lead 29
4300 Lead 21
4245 Lead 32
3530 Lead 28
3145 Lead 15
3300 Lead 8.5
4247 Lead 5
3064 Lead 3.4
If the 3530 mile reading was the first M1, it only went down 4 when adjusted for miles, from the previous Redline. It does go down pretty steady after that.
If the M1 is working for you though, no need to go back. Save the price difference for other things.
I think I may be coming down with Bitog Derangement Syndrome....
Never used Redline, so not here to defend them, but if you calculate the oil changes to all be 3500 miles, like the one at 25,900 miles, It looks like a fairly linear drop in lead. Assuming linear wear change related to miles, which is probably not accurate. And doesn't account for how it was driven each OCI. For instance, lead dropped 8 between the 3500 OCI, and the 4300 OCI on Redline, so hard to figure causes for drops/increases on UOA numbers.
Here is what I came up with after changing them to all be for 3500 miles (Report miles - adjusted Lead level):
3500 Lead 29
4300 Lead 21
4245 Lead 32
3530 Lead 28
3145 Lead 15
3300 Lead 8.5
4247 Lead 5
3064 Lead 3.4
If the 3530 mile reading was the first M1, it only went down 4 when adjusted for miles, from the previous Redline. It does go down pretty steady after that.
If the M1 is working for you though, no need to go back. Save the price difference for other things.
I think I may be coming down with Bitog Derangement Syndrome....
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I can't tell what but something in Red Line is probably corrosive to lead. It could also be that Red Line's detergents don't protect against lead corrosion. In any case I would avoid Red Line. I doubt it's the viscosity. You would probably get lower lead values with any API-certified oil, conventional or synthetic, thin or thick.
That's why it's so important to avoid these boutique oils that are not tested to meet any certifications.
That's why it's so important to avoid these boutique oils that are not tested to meet any certifications.
Originally Posted By: IllinoisSparky
Is it possible that this was just break-in wear reducing over time?
Never used Redline, so not here to defend them, but if you calculate the oil changes to all be 3500 miles, like the one at 25,900 miles, It looks like a fairly linear drop in lead. Assuming linear wear change related to miles, which is probably not accurate. And doesn't account for how it was driven each OCI. For instance, lead dropped 8 between the 3500 OCI, and the 4300 OCI on Redline, so hard to figure causes for drops/increases on UOA numbers.
Here is what I came up with after changing them to all be for 3500 miles (Report miles - adjusted Lead level):
3500 Lead 29
4300 Lead 21
4245 Lead 32
3530 Lead 28
3145 Lead 15
3300 Lead 8.5
4247 Lead 5
3064 Lead 3.4
If the 3530 mile reading was the first M1, it only went down 4 when adjusted for miles, from the previous Redline. It does go down pretty steady after that.
If the M1 is working for you though, no need to go back. Save the price difference for other things.
I think I may be coming down with Bitog Derangement Syndrome....
I'm not sure if you are looking at the reports correctly. That is not a linear drop in lead from where I started using Mobil 0w40. Its more like an exponential drop.
DH
Is it possible that this was just break-in wear reducing over time?
Never used Redline, so not here to defend them, but if you calculate the oil changes to all be 3500 miles, like the one at 25,900 miles, It looks like a fairly linear drop in lead. Assuming linear wear change related to miles, which is probably not accurate. And doesn't account for how it was driven each OCI. For instance, lead dropped 8 between the 3500 OCI, and the 4300 OCI on Redline, so hard to figure causes for drops/increases on UOA numbers.
Here is what I came up with after changing them to all be for 3500 miles (Report miles - adjusted Lead level):
3500 Lead 29
4300 Lead 21
4245 Lead 32
3530 Lead 28
3145 Lead 15
3300 Lead 8.5
4247 Lead 5
3064 Lead 3.4
If the 3530 mile reading was the first M1, it only went down 4 when adjusted for miles, from the previous Redline. It does go down pretty steady after that.
If the M1 is working for you though, no need to go back. Save the price difference for other things.
I think I may be coming down with Bitog Derangement Syndrome....
I'm not sure if you are looking at the reports correctly. That is not a linear drop in lead from where I started using Mobil 0w40. Its more like an exponential drop.
DH
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
I can't tell what but something in Red Line is probably corrosive to lead. It could also be that Red Line's detergents don't protect against lead corrosion. In any case I would avoid Red Line. I doubt it's the viscosity. You would probably get lower lead values with any API-certified oil, conventional or synthetic, thin or thick.
That's why it's so important to avoid these boutique oils that are not tested to meet any certifications.
I'm certainly not qualified to interpret Redlines effectiveness or lead leaching issues. I'm just certain that my Blackstone results speak for them selves. Before I switched to Mobil 0w40 I was sure I had a worn bearing issue that I had to deal with. Now I just have to worry about how much money I save over buying Redling !!!!
DH
I can't tell what but something in Red Line is probably corrosive to lead. It could also be that Red Line's detergents don't protect against lead corrosion. In any case I would avoid Red Line. I doubt it's the viscosity. You would probably get lower lead values with any API-certified oil, conventional or synthetic, thin or thick.
That's why it's so important to avoid these boutique oils that are not tested to meet any certifications.
I'm certainly not qualified to interpret Redlines effectiveness or lead leaching issues. I'm just certain that my Blackstone results speak for them selves. Before I switched to Mobil 0w40 I was sure I had a worn bearing issue that I had to deal with. Now I just have to worry about how much money I save over buying Redling !!!!
DH
Hey there,
It has nothing to do with the M1 0W-40 but everything to do with the Red Line. You would get similar results with conventional Walmart Super Tech 5W-30. However, a randomly formulated boutique oil that wasn't tested for anything and that doesn't meet a single API or ACEA specification was chosen. That's as bad as it gets unless you use some fake oil. Blending motor oil is not trivial. It requires extensive tests, of which Red Line probably carries none. Its specs are a joke: recommended for any certification (but doesn't meet any certification).
It has nothing to do with the M1 0W-40 but everything to do with the Red Line. You would get similar results with conventional Walmart Super Tech 5W-30. However, a randomly formulated boutique oil that wasn't tested for anything and that doesn't meet a single API or ACEA specification was chosen. That's as bad as it gets unless you use some fake oil. Blending motor oil is not trivial. It requires extensive tests, of which Red Line probably carries none. Its specs are a joke: recommended for any certification (but doesn't meet any certification).
I wonder what component or additive in Redline oil would be corrosive to lead? I don't think the oil had anything to do with it. If the lead issue were true we would be reading many stories of owners with high lead numbers on their analysis reports.
Originally Posted By: PimTac
I wonder what component or additive in Redline oil would be corrosive to lead? I don't think the oil had anything to do with it. If the lead issue were true we would be reading many stories of owners with high lead numbers on their analysis reports.
That's because few cars have lead bearings today and few people use Red Line.
It could be anything, such as an incompatibility between the base oil and detergent that prevents the detergent from inhibiting corrosion. That's why it's crucial for any oil blend to be thoroughly bench-tested before it's marketed. When you buy an API-certified oil, you know that this has been done; otherwise, you don't.
I wonder what component or additive in Redline oil would be corrosive to lead? I don't think the oil had anything to do with it. If the lead issue were true we would be reading many stories of owners with high lead numbers on their analysis reports.
That's because few cars have lead bearings today and few people use Red Line.
It could be anything, such as an incompatibility between the base oil and detergent that prevents the detergent from inhibiting corrosion. That's why it's crucial for any oil blend to be thoroughly bench-tested before it's marketed. When you buy an API-certified oil, you know that this has been done; otherwise, you don't.
I think we have a huge problem here with chasing UOA results when comparing oils of totally different chemistries. Until someone tears down a Red Line engine and shows that there was bearing wear, and not just elevated numbers for some other reason, we're just speculating. You simply can't compare totally different viscosities and chemistries and hope to come up with something meaningful.
If you want to chase good numbers, run a VOA.
If you want to chase good numbers, run a VOA.
He has done many UOAs with both oils. The effect is obvious. The viscosity is ruled out as the two oils have very similar viscosities -- HTHSV being 3.7 cP for Red Line vs. 3.8 cP for M1 0W-40 SN old formula. Besides, these engines shouldn't be too picky on the viscosity and even 0W-20 shouldn't cause bearing wear.
Here is another UOA in an engine with lead bearings -- same problem with Red Line, this time even a higher viscosity, not preventing lead corrosion in the bearings. Note that bearing corrosion always results in bearing wear. WRX normally has very low amounts of wear metals.
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1444003
Again, why would anyone use oils that are untested and uncertified?
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1444003
Again, why would anyone use oils that are untested and uncertified?
That still doesn't indicate any bearing wear. Comparing a couple UOAs of one oil chemistry versus another is reading things into a UOA that were never intended.
Originally Posted By: Gokhan
Again, why would anyone use oils that are untested and uncertified?
Uncertified, maybe. But untested? Do you think any boutique company, much less Red Line, whips stuff up without testing? Considering they print data sheets, they obviously must do at least some testing, unless they're just pulling every number out of thin air.
Again, why would anyone use oils that are untested and uncertified?
Uncertified, maybe. But untested? Do you think any boutique company, much less Red Line, whips stuff up without testing? Considering they print data sheets, they obviously must do at least some testing, unless they're just pulling every number out of thin air.
Redline, if I recall is part of Phillips 66 now. If their oil did not meet specs, I'm sure we would have heard by now. Yes it is a specialty oil.
I'm still waiting for the answer to the lead scavenging component. Ajax powder? The whole idea is speculation at best.
I'm still waiting for the answer to the lead scavenging component. Ajax powder? The whole idea is speculation at best.
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