HDEO trends

[4WD]

I'll start this question with a disclaimer - I split my lubricant and fuel business between Mobil and Shell - so willing to and do run several products from those companies:
T6 is a very "trendy" oil here and elsewhere- for diesel, gas, OPE, boats. Good stuff - fair enough.
Mobil Delvac 1300 (a million mile oil) has similar HTHS, and AW - but despite being premium Dino - a lower NOACK.
(I expected better from synthetic)
Both can make a snack of a 7500 mile OCI (all I care to run in 5.3L)
So why should I pay 30% more for T6 if weather is not an issue (it is not) ?

 

[FCD]

Chances are your engine will not know the difference.
I have seen some engines where actually dino oils returned lower iron quantities in UOAs.
Go for the Delvac 1300 and don't worry.

 

[Eddie]

Makes you feel better because you would be with the "In crowd cool guys"?

 

[JHZR2]

5w- became the norm because it was found that fuel economy improvements could be had due to lower pumping losses at startup temperature. Notionally better flow at startup is a no brainer too.

But to your point, I have a good sae paper someplace by chevron comparing delo 15w-40 to what was not stated but clearl Delvac 1.

There are startup advantages to a 5w-40. Ive noted them myself in my own diesels. If its not something that you are taking advantage of (eg lots of long distance nonstop driving), there may not be a lot of benefit...

 

[4WD]

"Better flow"'has been beaten on pretty hard here - but some contend synthetic oil drains off more between startups ?

 

[CT8]

Marketing works.Syns are better for starts in below freezing temperatures.

 

[bullwinkle]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
I'll start this question with a disclaimer - I split my lubricant and fuel business between Mobil and Shell - so willing to and do run several products from those companies:
T6 is a very "trendy" oil here and elsewhere- for diesel, gas, OPE, boats. Good stuff - fair enough.
Mobil Delvac 1300 (a million mile oil) has similar HTHS, and AW - but despite being premium Dino - a lower NOACK.
(I expected better from synthetic)
Both can make a snack of a 7500 mile OCI (all I care to run in 5.3L)
So why should I pay 30% more for T6 if weather is not an issue (it is not) ?
Delvac 1300 isn't a synthetic, I'm not even sure it's a blend. T6 has a VERY high NOACK % for a full syn HDEO, I stock up when Mobil runs their rebates, or when there is a close out, on Delvac 1 5W40 ESP.

 

[chilson450]

Is the new line of Rotella oils going to be suitable for mixed fleets? I see on their website the new T6 5w30 multivehicle has the SN rating. The other oils (T4,T5,T6) only have the diesel ratings. The oil jugs i have seen around here either have the older CJ4/SM rating or CK4 rating with no gasoline rating.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
5w- became the norm because it was found that fuel economy improvements could be had due to lower pumping losses at startup temperature.


Not quite, unless you are including the viscous shearing in bearing surfaces (including the piston skirts) in the definition of pumping losses...difference in oil pump power is <<100W...difference in wasted power in the bearing surfaces whole KWs

 

[Virtus_Probi]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Delvac 1300 isn't a synthetic, I'm not even sure it's a blend. T6 has a VERY high NOACK % for a full syn HDEO, I stock up when Mobil runs their rebates, or when there is a close out, on Delvac 1 5W40 ESP.


Are there really 5W40 conventional oils? I really don't know, did a quick google and I see the answer "no" in a few places, not sure if that is really the case.

I was really surprised to see that the NOACK of T6 was so high, also, I looked carefully at the PQIA test results and I figure they are probably pretty reliable. I am very curious to see what the new SN 5W30 Rotella looks like...

 

[TiredTrucker]

No. 5w40 HDEO is clearly in the synthetic camp. I don't really bother with it. In winter I run a 10w30 syn blend HDEO and summer a 15w40 syn blend HDEO. Someone is going to have to send a memo to my truck with 628,000 miles on it that this is a bad thing to do, as it hasn't figured it out yet. 22,500 mile / 400 hr oil changes and uses about 2 qts of oil in that time frame on either oil.

 

[4WD]

It should be a blend of EHC45/EHC65 ... sort of a Group II+ ... regardless a lower NOACK in the 15w40 ... and I'd assume that would minimize VII ...

 

[JHZR2]

Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: JHZR2
5w- became the norm because it was found that fuel economy improvements could be had due to lower pumping losses at startup temperature.


Not quite, unless you are including the viscous shearing in bearing surfaces (including the piston skirts) in the definition of pumping losses...difference in oil pump power is div>


That's fine, but note the OP's question. He is looking at two 40wt oils, in a warm climate.

Neither you nor I can define dynamic variation in viscosity and thus losses in lubricants starting up at some temperature, and closing in on essentially the same viscosity and therefore the same losses when the lubricant is at temperature.

I've used the term pumping losses, perhaps incorrectly, to include all losses in the drivetrain due to moving air and combusting... I.e. The piston skirt and bearing losses you mention. I e viewed it again perhaps incorrectly like an air compressor. You have some amount of free air flow for some energy input. Change the viscosity of the lube, and all the things you mention are fact, but at the end of the day, the reciprocating components, moving to displace air, have higher or lower composite losses. The losses are higher or lower, regardless of the specific mechanism.

Anyway, point is at 100c, the difference is not really there, per than minuscule differences in operating viscosity or shearing. In warm ambient temperatures, the time at higher viscosities is notionally shorter with the 5w than the 15w, so fuel economy may be improved for that segment in time. The benefit comes from how much time is at temperature vs in that regime. For passenger cars, a lot of time is spent in the transient regime, so regardless of loss mechanism, there is benefit to be had. For something like a long distance driver or OTR truck, it's much different...

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
Chances are your engine will not know the difference.
I have seen some engines where actually dino oils returned lower iron quantities in UOAs.
Go for the Delvac 1300 and don't worry.


I agree...

 

[dnewton3]

Originally Posted By: 4WD
... Both can make a snack of a 7500 mile OCI (all I care to run in 5.3L) So why should I pay 30% more for T6 if weather is not an issue (it is not) ?


I'll go you one better ...
Why pay for HDEO at all?

What do you intend to gain?
Are you presuming that a decent PCMO cannot do 7.5k miles?
What measurement method (other than the infamous BITOG lube-bigot opinion survey) were you intending to gauge this by?

I run dino oils farther than most here run syns. I've never seen any risk to it; UOAs always show no issues whatsoever. Why do you seek an HDEO for your 5.3L engine?

 

[4WD]

No longer a daily driver - it is parked about 2 weeks to 3 weeks at a time (synthetic drain off) and then does lots of two mile trips, seeping did not slow with HM 30, I drive in deep sand in the 100F summers (think that is harder than my light tows) high humidity environment. Motor has never seen conventional oil to date ... Delvac would be cheaper than the M1 in it now ... don't see any price difference around here between Dino PCMO or HDEO ...
Confused by what you want measure ? HDEO has to re qualify it's capabilities ?
I don't pay for UOA's and see no need to need to with this switch ...

 

[dnewton3]

You said weather is not an issue, but now you're bringing up heat? The fact that you drive in sand when it's hot is is moot. You have a properly operating thermostat, do you not? And a functioning temp gage? If you have clear evidence that the engine is overheating, then no oil choice is going to save it from overheating. If it's operating fine, then there's no reason to believe a syn is going to be "better" as the coolant system should be doing it's job. (BTW - while humidity means a lot to you, because you cool yourself by evaporation; your engine does not, so that too is moot.)

And you mention that the truck has "never seen conventional oil to date". How do you know if good old PCMO would work or not?

So, if you don't pay for UOAs, then what is your method to determine if a syn is "better", a dino PCMO "better" or HDEO "better"? Still, I am going to recommend that you do some UOAs. Then see how your current lube stacks up to UAs. Then try a different lube and do some more.

If you're not willing to do that, then it's clear to me your using subjective info (opinions) and not objective info (data) to make decisions. Nothing wrong with that. Just realize and admit it's all about wants and not needs. You've been here 7 years and 2300 posts; this can't be new to you. Either think you way through this; use intellect and collect data to make an informed decision. Or feel your way through this; listen to those who agree with you and ignore those who don't.

 

[4WD]

Discussion was 5w vs 15w - note what several others said about pumping at start up etc. The truck has no cooling problem other than system is smaller than a full sized truck with a V8/related and runs a bit hotter pulling a load at slow speed - but has only completely "over heated" when a heater hose went last summer (12 miles from town) and I did not catch it until the dash started ringing in. I do value having a stout oil for days like that. So why is it that folks mention towing all the time but deep sand a moot point - it's a load (like I said).
To your other "moot point" do you realize the downside of not reaching operating temp ? Read about the lady in Newfoundland

I did not suggest I needed the synthetic - I preferred it and I was considering getting away from it - you could question the folks who tout T6 nonstop on this site for unlimited items. Do they need synthetic ?
Dino PCMO is fine - but if you look at the blend charts of the XOM base fluids I referred to - I think Delvac is better for the same money. I read UAO's here all the time - I read the comments and I research the oils. Delvac is one of the best oils made and I don't need a to pay for any UOA to run it 7500 miles - that money would buy the oil.
What member do you think has the highest net miles in his signature? And how many UOA's has he posted.

 

[Shannow]

There's some data available on this topic.

First this one shows the energy wasted in shearing surfaces for the first few minutes after starting...

This shows the effect that we are talking about, the FMEP losses with viscosity and temperature

funnily, thicker oil warms up faster, more RPM warms up faster, just as intuition would have it.


Originally Posted By: JHZR2

Anyway, point is at 100c, the difference is not really there, per than minuscule differences in operating viscosity or shearing. In warm ambient temperatures, the time at higher viscosities is notionally shorter with the 5w than the 15w, so fuel economy may be improved for that segment in time. The benefit comes from how much time is at temperature vs in that regime. For passenger cars, a lot of time is spent in the transient regime, so regardless of loss mechanism, there is benefit to be had. For something like a long distance driver or OTR truck, it's much different...


I've never claimed that there's not an economy benefit due to precisely the above...

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: dnewton3
And you mention that the truck has "never seen conventional oil to date". How do you know if good old PCMO would work or not?

So, if you don't pay for UOAs, then what is your method to determine if a syn is "better", a dino PCMO "better" or HDEO "better"? Still, I am going to recommend that you do some UOAs. Then see how your current lube stacks up to UAs. Then try a different lube and do some more.

For me, cost and availability are a big part of the definition of "better." Of course, every location is different, within both our countries. I get some high value off of the Delvac line to the point the HDEO winds up being considerably more cost effective than even most on sale PCMOs, plus it keeps me out of Walmart.