My dad's 79 Rocket 350 in a big Delta 88 was amazing. Maybe it was rear edn gearing? It launched so quickly and torquey.
Oldsmobile 350 Rocket Motor
- Thread starter Letsrunum
- Start date
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Oldsmobile had the motor that was going to take out the competition in 1971-1972.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3tSKRCFJhpg
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QNgZ4q2EWBs
Published on Jan 21, 2016John Beltz was Oldsmobile's chief engineer in 1964 and one of the prime movers of the Toronado and 442 project. Beltz was promoted to Oldsmobile general manager at age 43 in 1969 when Harold N. Metzel retired. Beltz passed away in May of 1972 from cancer at the age of 46.
John Beltz is leaning on a dual fan 455 Olds and posing with other experimental Olds engines that never saw production.
Here are descriptions of these engines:
1. The 0W-43 all aluminum 455 with 4 valve per cylinders, four overhead cam Weber engine. With a redline of just under 8,500rpm it was originally conceived for CAN AM racing. At 3,000rpm it put out 300hp and at 6,000rpm registered over 600hp. The top output recorded for this engine in the Lansing dyno facility was 700 real hp at 6,800rpm. Tests were run with both carbueration and fuel injection. The block was cast from Reynolds 356 alloy and fitted with pressed-in dry steel cylinder liners for the Forged-True 12.20to 1 pistons. Billet steel connecting rods by Carillo was used along with a forged steel crank. The engine weighed in at 50 pounds lighter than the production 455 motor! It was developed at the same time as the ZL-1 Chevy 427 motor.
2. The W-43 4 valve per cylinder 455 developed by JOHN BELTZ , LLOYD GILL , JOE JONES AND FRANK BALL. Rated at 500-550hp with a single Rochester Quadrajet on an aluminum manifold. Constructed with both cast iron heads and block and with aluminum-alloy block and heads 75 pounds lighter than the conventional 455 production engine. Engine featured four valves per cylinder with narrowed angles for a super efficient combustion chamber design, central spark plugs and could easily be adapted for chain for gear driven overhead camshafts. 455 engine had 4.625inch cylinder centers, a 4.125 bore and 4.250 stroke. Making use of the 3inch main bearings and 2.50 inch rod journals, the engine was fitted with a specially prepared cast crank fitted with SAE-1140 forged steel rods, forged 10.20-to-1 pistons which rode on Morraine 400 bearings. Four bolt main block boasted 2 additional 5/8inch drain holes. Four valve heads featured 1.750inch intake valves (SAE-8640 steel) with 22 degree stems and 1.375 exhaust (214-N stainless steel) with 15 degree stems, special Stellite seats, bronze alloy guides, o ring plug tubes, 14mm spark plugs, 3/8 inch pushrods and aluminum rocker arms. (Of all the experimental Olds engines, this one came the closest to production and there are photos of this engine in street gear. MAY 71 HOT ROD MAGAZINE features some of these engines and the sadness of the Olds engineers of that time of how they would never be released.)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3tSKRCFJhpg
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QNgZ4q2EWBs
Published on Jan 21, 2016John Beltz was Oldsmobile's chief engineer in 1964 and one of the prime movers of the Toronado and 442 project. Beltz was promoted to Oldsmobile general manager at age 43 in 1969 when Harold N. Metzel retired. Beltz passed away in May of 1972 from cancer at the age of 46.
John Beltz is leaning on a dual fan 455 Olds and posing with other experimental Olds engines that never saw production.
Here are descriptions of these engines:
1. The 0W-43 all aluminum 455 with 4 valve per cylinders, four overhead cam Weber engine. With a redline of just under 8,500rpm it was originally conceived for CAN AM racing. At 3,000rpm it put out 300hp and at 6,000rpm registered over 600hp. The top output recorded for this engine in the Lansing dyno facility was 700 real hp at 6,800rpm. Tests were run with both carbueration and fuel injection. The block was cast from Reynolds 356 alloy and fitted with pressed-in dry steel cylinder liners for the Forged-True 12.20to 1 pistons. Billet steel connecting rods by Carillo was used along with a forged steel crank. The engine weighed in at 50 pounds lighter than the production 455 motor! It was developed at the same time as the ZL-1 Chevy 427 motor.
2. The W-43 4 valve per cylinder 455 developed by JOHN BELTZ , LLOYD GILL , JOE JONES AND FRANK BALL. Rated at 500-550hp with a single Rochester Quadrajet on an aluminum manifold. Constructed with both cast iron heads and block and with aluminum-alloy block and heads 75 pounds lighter than the conventional 455 production engine. Engine featured four valves per cylinder with narrowed angles for a super efficient combustion chamber design, central spark plugs and could easily be adapted for chain for gear driven overhead camshafts. 455 engine had 4.625inch cylinder centers, a 4.125 bore and 4.250 stroke. Making use of the 3inch main bearings and 2.50 inch rod journals, the engine was fitted with a specially prepared cast crank fitted with SAE-1140 forged steel rods, forged 10.20-to-1 pistons which rode on Morraine 400 bearings. Four bolt main block boasted 2 additional 5/8inch drain holes. Four valve heads featured 1.750inch intake valves (SAE-8640 steel) with 22 degree stems and 1.375 exhaust (214-N stainless steel) with 15 degree stems, special Stellite seats, bronze alloy guides, o ring plug tubes, 14mm spark plugs, 3/8 inch pushrods and aluminum rocker arms. (Of all the experimental Olds engines, this one came the closest to production and there are photos of this engine in street gear. MAY 71 HOT ROD MAGAZINE features some of these engines and the sadness of the Olds engineers of that time of how they would never be released.)
Boy, this post brings back the memories!
My first car was the families 1970 Olds Cutlass "S" fastback, bought for $200. She had the 350 2-barrel and Turbo350 with a 3.08 rear if memory serves. I modified it on a shoestring budget (I was in HS at the time). She was "Bronze" with a black vinyl top.
I put a Trans-Go shift kit in her, went with a OEM 4-barrel cast iron intake with a Holly Spread-bore double-pumper carburetor and Moroso open-element chrome air cleaner. Dual exhaust with glasspacks and chrome tips. Coil-over rear springs, Cragar SS rims and 70-series white letter bias ply tires. She was a fun car to drive and cruise back in the day. I got 9 miles to the gallon but gas was like $0.85/gal. Sold it with 180K miles on her. VERY much wish I stilled owned her!
My first car was the families 1970 Olds Cutlass "S" fastback, bought for $200. She had the 350 2-barrel and Turbo350 with a 3.08 rear if memory serves. I modified it on a shoestring budget (I was in HS at the time). She was "Bronze" with a black vinyl top.
I put a Trans-Go shift kit in her, went with a OEM 4-barrel cast iron intake with a Holly Spread-bore double-pumper carburetor and Moroso open-element chrome air cleaner. Dual exhaust with glasspacks and chrome tips. Coil-over rear springs, Cragar SS rims and 70-series white letter bias ply tires. She was a fun car to drive and cruise back in the day. I got 9 miles to the gallon but gas was like $0.85/gal. Sold it with 180K miles on her. VERY much wish I stilled owned her!
I got everything to look at for wear damage over the years. Stock oil pan/stock heads that didn't have problems with the hi-volume oil pump. The rebuild kit I bought came with a stock oil pump(if somebody needs one they can have it).
http://crane.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/16380/803902
I didn't do my research into my stock 5A heads and I was wondering if I can do a upgrade to them. Only the W-31 got the big valves and springs. Only W-31's were fitted with the larger valves.
http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofhed.htm[img:gal:7721258b45500de72c]
http://crane.carshopinc.com/product_info.php/products_id/16380/803902
I didn't do my research into my stock 5A heads and I was wondering if I can do a upgrade to them. Only the W-31 got the big valves and springs. Only W-31's were fitted with the larger valves.
http://www.442.com/oldsfaq/ofhed.htm[img:gal:7721258b45500de72c]
I should've got my oil analyzed before I broke it down. It was mandatory for us to do so before you could change the motor oil out back in my military days.
https://m.summitracing.com/parts/cca-995-16
https://m.summitracing.com/parts/cca-995-16
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: WhizkidTN
Boy, this post brings back the memories!
My first car was the families 1970 Olds Cutlass "S" fastback, bought for $200. She had the 350 2-barrel and Turbo350 with a 3.08 rear if memory serves. I modified it on a shoestring budget (I was in HS at the time). She was "Bronze" with a black vinyl top.
I put a Trans-Go shift kit in her, went with a OEM 4-barrel cast iron intake with a Holly Spread-bore double-pumper carburetor and Moroso open-element chrome air cleaner. Dual exhaust with glasspacks and chrome tips. Coil-over rear springs, Cragar SS rims and 70-series white letter bias ply tires. She was a fun car to drive and cruise back in the day. I got 9 miles to the gallon but gas was like $0.85/gal. Sold it with 180K miles on her. VERY much wish I stilled owned her!
I usually see the S model around here with the long back glass. I like the looks from the short back glass on the supreme model. It's also because, it don't look like the others. I have another unique car I can post on a different thread. It's going to be for my daughter(5speed). You gotta learn to drive a stick sometime in your life, why not start early in your life like I did in my 93 Nissan Pickup truck(5speed). I taught my wife how to drive one on my 1999 Nissan Maxima(5speed)... Took me along time to find that car with a stick(3.0L was nice with over 200,000 and a few upgrades).
Boy, this post brings back the memories!
My first car was the families 1970 Olds Cutlass "S" fastback, bought for $200. She had the 350 2-barrel and Turbo350 with a 3.08 rear if memory serves. I modified it on a shoestring budget (I was in HS at the time). She was "Bronze" with a black vinyl top.
I put a Trans-Go shift kit in her, went with a OEM 4-barrel cast iron intake with a Holly Spread-bore double-pumper carburetor and Moroso open-element chrome air cleaner. Dual exhaust with glasspacks and chrome tips. Coil-over rear springs, Cragar SS rims and 70-series white letter bias ply tires. She was a fun car to drive and cruise back in the day. I got 9 miles to the gallon but gas was like $0.85/gal. Sold it with 180K miles on her. VERY much wish I stilled owned her!
I usually see the S model around here with the long back glass. I like the looks from the short back glass on the supreme model. It's also because, it don't look like the others. I have another unique car I can post on a different thread. It's going to be for my daughter(5speed). You gotta learn to drive a stick sometime in your life, why not start early in your life like I did in my 93 Nissan Pickup truck(5speed). I taught my wife how to drive one on my 1999 Nissan Maxima(5speed)... Took me along time to find that car with a stick(3.0L was nice with over 200,000 and a few upgrades).
List of cars I've owned,
1972 cutlass supreme
1971 cutlass S
1970 cutlass supreme
1993 Nissan pickup(5speed)
1982 RX7(5speed)
1996 Nissan maxima
1999 Nissan maxima(5speed)
2003 Nissan Sentra SE-R specV(6speed)
2004 Honda Accord
2001 GMC Pickup(5.3L)
2007 Honda Civic SI(6speed)
2014 Chevy Impala(limited edition)
1972 cutlass supreme
1971 cutlass S
1970 cutlass supreme
1993 Nissan pickup(5speed)
1982 RX7(5speed)
1996 Nissan maxima
1999 Nissan maxima(5speed)
2003 Nissan Sentra SE-R specV(6speed)
2004 Honda Accord
2001 GMC Pickup(5.3L)
2007 Honda Civic SI(6speed)
2014 Chevy Impala(limited edition)
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2006
- Messages
- 29,558
Thank you for the pictures!! That was one BAD AS* car!! That picture of it parked parallel was just gorgeous!! I too prefer Oldsmobiles and Buicks.
Originally Posted By: Letsrunum
Originally Posted By: WhizkidTN
Boy, this post brings back the memories!
My first car was the families 1970 Olds Cutlass "S" fastback, bought for $200. She had the 350 2-barrel and Turbo350 with a 3.08 rear if memory serves. I modified it on a shoestring budget (I was in HS at the time). She was "Bronze" with a black vinyl top.
I put a Trans-Go shift kit in her, went with a OEM 4-barrel cast iron intake with a Holly Spread-bore double-pumper carburetor and Moroso open-element chrome air cleaner. Dual exhaust with glasspacks and chrome tips. Coil-over rear springs, Cragar SS rims and 70-series white letter bias ply tires. She was a fun car to drive and cruise back in the day. I got 9 miles to the gallon but gas was like $0.85/gal. Sold it with 180K miles on her. VERY much wish I stilled owned her!
I usually see the S model around here with the long back glass. I like the looks from the short back glass on the supreme model. It's also because, it don't look like the others. I have another unique car I can post on a different thread. It's going to be for my daughter(5speed). You gotta learn to drive a stick sometime in your life, why not start early in your life like I did in my 93 Nissan Pickup truck(5speed). I taught my wife how to drive one on my 1999 Nissan Maxima(5speed)... Took me along time to find that car with a stick(3.0L was nice with over 200,000 and a few upgrades).
Agreed on the 5-speed stick. That's also funny about your '99 Maxima. I had a '98 Maxima SE (bought at 165K miles) that I drove four years before I passed it on to my son who drove it another two years. In the end, the engine leaked oil like a stuck pig (even after I redid the valve covers) but it ran great till the auto tranny died at 256K miles. If it has the stick, it would still be on the road today! Now he drives the '07 Volvo S80.
My first stick car was a '77 Toyota Celica GT (the mini-Mustang 302 fastback version). Later on, I had a '90 Subaru Justy "GL" which had a 1.2L three cylinder with EFI and a 5-speed stick. This was a very little car but got 38MPG no matter how I drove it! The car was so light that you could get rubber in the first three gears (FWD) with that thing. No airbags, no air conditioning, tinny AM/FM radio, etc. Drove that sucker for 9 years. I think I must have been insane.
Originally Posted By: WhizkidTN
Boy, this post brings back the memories!
My first car was the families 1970 Olds Cutlass "S" fastback, bought for $200. She had the 350 2-barrel and Turbo350 with a 3.08 rear if memory serves. I modified it on a shoestring budget (I was in HS at the time). She was "Bronze" with a black vinyl top.
I put a Trans-Go shift kit in her, went with a OEM 4-barrel cast iron intake with a Holly Spread-bore double-pumper carburetor and Moroso open-element chrome air cleaner. Dual exhaust with glasspacks and chrome tips. Coil-over rear springs, Cragar SS rims and 70-series white letter bias ply tires. She was a fun car to drive and cruise back in the day. I got 9 miles to the gallon but gas was like $0.85/gal. Sold it with 180K miles on her. VERY much wish I stilled owned her!
I usually see the S model around here with the long back glass. I like the looks from the short back glass on the supreme model. It's also because, it don't look like the others. I have another unique car I can post on a different thread. It's going to be for my daughter(5speed). You gotta learn to drive a stick sometime in your life, why not start early in your life like I did in my 93 Nissan Pickup truck(5speed). I taught my wife how to drive one on my 1999 Nissan Maxima(5speed)... Took me along time to find that car with a stick(3.0L was nice with over 200,000 and a few upgrades).
Agreed on the 5-speed stick. That's also funny about your '99 Maxima. I had a '98 Maxima SE (bought at 165K miles) that I drove four years before I passed it on to my son who drove it another two years. In the end, the engine leaked oil like a stuck pig (even after I redid the valve covers) but it ran great till the auto tranny died at 256K miles. If it has the stick, it would still be on the road today! Now he drives the '07 Volvo S80.
My first stick car was a '77 Toyota Celica GT (the mini-Mustang 302 fastback version). Later on, I had a '90 Subaru Justy "GL" which had a 1.2L three cylinder with EFI and a 5-speed stick. This was a very little car but got 38MPG no matter how I drove it! The car was so light that you could get rubber in the first three gears (FWD) with that thing. No airbags, no air conditioning, tinny AM/FM radio, etc. Drove that sucker for 9 years. I think I must have been insane.
In 1978 my 1st car was was a 72 Cutlass Collonade Coupe, burgundy with a white vinyl top: 350, 4bbl, 350 hydra. Put Hedmans and duals, but the 2.73 open was too tall. 1980 gas prices forced a trade to an Iron Duke Sunbird with a 4 speed. Fast forward to 2000, got the car in my signature: numbers matching 72 vert, except color and headers; put an Offy dual quad on it. Pretty neat, sounds great now with 2.5" Flowmasters. Wide ratio 4 speed and 3.23. Turns heads, esp when shifting thru the gears: less than 10% of Olds at the time had 4 speeds. Not smart enough to post the video on here.
Originally Posted By: Letsrunum
The 1970 I bought, I didn't check the whole car on what it had already 307(not suppose to be in that car) and found out it the rear end had already been upgraded to a 12 bolt rear end. That's a plus, I will need to upgrade some things. My carburetor is undersized and the stock stall converter needs upgraded like you said.
I bought it for $1,500 running
Well, the 307 wasn't the best motor that Olds ever built...the long stroke and narrow cylinders helped out with the emissions/mileage imperative at the time, but there isn't really any way to build up a 307...
As you've already figured out: it's best to yank it and go with the 350, as you did...
Or go with the 455...if I remember right, you could bolt up the same transmission to a 455, the engine/bellhousing fit was the same between the 455 and the 350, and 307. Most of the accessories would bolt right up to the 455 as well...
A built 455 was a monster. Mondello racing used to make some great cams/accessories for that engine that would maximize the torque potential. A simple Edelbrock dual plane intake with a good carb (smaller primaries helped the idle and low speed response) was all it needed.
Ah, the good old days!
The 1970 I bought, I didn't check the whole car on what it had already 307(not suppose to be in that car) and found out it the rear end had already been upgraded to a 12 bolt rear end. That's a plus, I will need to upgrade some things. My carburetor is undersized and the stock stall converter needs upgraded like you said.
I bought it for $1,500 running
Well, the 307 wasn't the best motor that Olds ever built...the long stroke and narrow cylinders helped out with the emissions/mileage imperative at the time, but there isn't really any way to build up a 307...
As you've already figured out: it's best to yank it and go with the 350, as you did...
Or go with the 455...if I remember right, you could bolt up the same transmission to a 455, the engine/bellhousing fit was the same between the 455 and the 350, and 307. Most of the accessories would bolt right up to the 455 as well...
A built 455 was a monster. Mondello racing used to make some great cams/accessories for that engine that would maximize the torque potential. A simple Edelbrock dual plane intake with a good carb (smaller primaries helped the idle and low speed response) was all it needed.
Ah, the good old days!
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: Letsrunum
The 1970 I bought, I didn't check the whole car on what it had already 307(not suppose to be in that car) and found out it the rear end had already been upgraded to a 12 bolt rear end. That's a plus, I will need to upgrade some things. My carburetor is undersized and the stock stall converter needs upgraded like you said.
I bought it for $1,500 running
Well, the 307 wasn't the best motor that Olds ever built...the long stroke and narrow cylinders helped out with the emissions/mileage imperative at the time, but there isn't really any way to build up a 307...
As you've already figured out: it's best to yank it and go with the 350, as you did...
Or go with the 455...if I remember right, you could bolt up the same transmission to a 455, the engine/bellhousing fit was the same between the 455 and the 350, and 307. Most of the accessories would bolt right up to the 455 as well...
A built 455 was a monster. Mondello racing used to make some great cams/accessories for that engine that would maximize the torque potential. A simple Edelbrock dual plane intake with a good carb (smaller primaries helped the idle and low speed response) was all it needed.
Ah, the good old days!
Yeah, but those 2-bolt mains....
Originally Posted By: Letsrunum
The 1970 I bought, I didn't check the whole car on what it had already 307(not suppose to be in that car) and found out it the rear end had already been upgraded to a 12 bolt rear end. That's a plus, I will need to upgrade some things. My carburetor is undersized and the stock stall converter needs upgraded like you said.
I bought it for $1,500 running
Well, the 307 wasn't the best motor that Olds ever built...the long stroke and narrow cylinders helped out with the emissions/mileage imperative at the time, but there isn't really any way to build up a 307...
As you've already figured out: it's best to yank it and go with the 350, as you did...
Or go with the 455...if I remember right, you could bolt up the same transmission to a 455, the engine/bellhousing fit was the same between the 455 and the 350, and 307. Most of the accessories would bolt right up to the 455 as well...
A built 455 was a monster. Mondello racing used to make some great cams/accessories for that engine that would maximize the torque potential. A simple Edelbrock dual plane intake with a good carb (smaller primaries helped the idle and low speed response) was all it needed.
Ah, the good old days!
Yeah, but those 2-bolt mains....
Mondello had a fix for those, too. But unless you were revving the motor, two bolt mains would hold up just fine. They were built for, and made a ton of, torque.
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Mondello had a fix for those, too. But unless you were revving the motor, two bolt mains would hold up just fine. They were built for, and made a ton of, torque.
You are likely exactly correct, I just remember back in the day when my Chevy friends used to rag on my "lowly" Olds 350 engine for "only" having two bolt mains.
Mondello had a fix for those, too. But unless you were revving the motor, two bolt mains would hold up just fine. They were built for, and made a ton of, torque.
You are likely exactly correct, I just remember back in the day when my Chevy friends used to rag on my "lowly" Olds 350 engine for "only" having two bolt mains.
Get a major torque tune for it, cam and valve springs for 5000 rpm peak. I bet it would just love about 6 psi of boost for a reliable 500 foot pounds of torque...
What's everyone's opinion of the poncho 400?
Info about 2bolt vs 4bolt
http://www.badasscars.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=83/prd83.htm
https://m.summitracing.com/parts/arp-184-5001
https://m.summitracing.com/parts/arp-184-6001
https://m.summitracing.com/parts/arp-180-3600
Put ARP to the test
I put the stock crank shaft back. They were expensive if, I remember right. But, I couldn't find one either back in 07.
http://www.badasscars.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=83/prd83.htm
https://m.summitracing.com/parts/arp-184-5001
https://m.summitracing.com/parts/arp-184-6001
https://m.summitracing.com/parts/arp-180-3600
Put ARP to the test
I put the stock crank shaft back. They were expensive if, I remember right. But, I couldn't find one either back in 07.
Originally Posted By: wheelman1991
What's everyone's opinion of the poncho 400?
What year block? In the mid 70s the 400 blocks were cast with weight reduction in mind and had thin webbing around the crank which made them a poor choice for a performance build. I built a few Poncho stump pullers back in the day, before there were good aftermarket parts. With the parts available today you could easily turn a 400 into a killer 461 capable of tremendous numbers at 5000 RPM.
What's everyone's opinion of the poncho 400?
What year block? In the mid 70s the 400 blocks were cast with weight reduction in mind and had thin webbing around the crank which made them a poor choice for a performance build. I built a few Poncho stump pullers back in the day, before there were good aftermarket parts. With the parts available today you could easily turn a 400 into a killer 461 capable of tremendous numbers at 5000 RPM.
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