Japanese vs American cars

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Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071

An example is how he praises Toyota trucks. They are reliable, yes, but a quick search reveals lots of people who have had frame problems and Toyota denied any responsibility.



Wrong.

Dana Corp made the frames incorrectly. As a result, Toyota won a multi-million dollar lawsuit against Dana Corp for those incorrectly made frames, AND has replaced thousands of early Tacoma, Tundra, and Sequoia frames, or bought the trucks back at well over blue book.



Not wrong, look it up.

They did get sued and have a recall for the older trucks (previous gen Tacomas for example). The newer ones not so much. Yes, they have replaced some, but it is on a case by case basis. Many owners have gotten the "you drove it in salt" excuse in the northeastern states. This problem has been seen on trucks up to model year 2015 with 40k miles.
 
I got into a bit of a disagreement on here a few weeks ago when someone asked about buying the same model car as I use for my daily driver and there were a lot of knee jerk "they're junk-stay away" responses. Mine has needed very little work beyond age/mileage replacement wear that will happen with any car(how many 150K Toyotas still have their factory serpentine belt, for example).

My first car was a '94 Maxima and it was a great car, but when it was 13 years old and had ~120,000 miles on it I'd done a lot more work on it than I have on my alleged "money pit" 2004 Lincoln(which, BTW, has 150,000 miles on it now at the 13 year mark).

Back in the '90s, my dad traveled a lot for work and went through a period of trading cars every 8-14 months and often 60,000 in that time period. Although he had a lot of GM vehicles, he owned his fair share of FoMoCo products along with Toyotas and Nissans. The absolute most unreliable car he owned was a 1991 Pontiac 2000, followed pretty closely by a 1997 Oldmobile 88. The most reliable was his '94 Tbird followed pretty closely by his '96 Tacoma(he also liked the Tbird well enough to keep it for 2 1/2 years). The Pontiac's biggest issue was that it was 8 years old when he bought it and had 12,000 miles on it(i.e. it had sat a lot). The Oldsmobile was only about a year and a half old when we got it, but with the nature of the problems it had the best he could figure was that it had been wrecked and not straightened correctly.

There are specific issues that come up on specific models, but my general impression is that most modern cars are overall fairly reliable.

One thing that I do really appreciate when it comes to working on domestic cars is that parts are often less expensive than for the major Japanese brands. I tend to buy Motorcraft parts for my Lincoln, but comparable Denso parts(for example) can be eye-popping.

I've been helping a good friend keep her '97 Prizm-which is a Corolla on which I'm still looking for the GM part-patched together well enough to get her to the end of grad school and a real job
smile.gif
. Back in December, she tracked me down and said that the car flat wouldn't start. I went over, did some diagnostic work, and diagnosed a bad ignition coil. Toyota doesn't really want you to change the coil(they'd rather you swap the whole distributor) but it's possible. An hour and some blood offerings later, the car was running with a new ignition coil. With that said, I didn't change the cap, wires, and rotor as even buying NAPA branded parts would have added $125 to the work to get a $500 car running. There were some lingering misfires that I suspected were due to wear or low spring tension on the center carbon button in the cap(this distributor uses a second carbon button to pick up from the HT point on the coil). Fortunately Rock Auto bailed us out and we were able to change all of those parts for around $40. Granted I doubt that those parts had ever been changed, and I can't fault the Denso branded ones for continuing to at least function on up into the 150,000 range. Still, though, I think the last cap, rotor, and wire set I bought for a small block Chevy('94 Silverado) was around $60 at NAPA.
 
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Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: gregk24
When your talking 200K + miles, how the vehicle was maintained is far more important than the vehicles make. Having said that when you look at various sources Japanese makes still come out on top in the reliability department. It is true however, that other manufacturers are catching up. IMO GM still isn't doing so hot in the reliability department, they would be near the bottom of my list. The new 1.5 turbo is having some pretty serious teething issues.


10 years later and Honda is still having VTC actuator issues.


Yes, I don't understand why they can't get that part right. Having said that, how many engines have we seen fail as a result? The K24 has been affected now for 9 years, and newer 1.5's have been affected for a short while as well. Just think of the THOUSANDS upon thousands of engines with this issue, yet few if any have failed as a result. Honda still ranks among the top in reliability.


Meh, Honda is usually midpack, at best. Buick always beats them.
 
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: gregk24
Originally Posted By: dishdude
Originally Posted By: gregk24
When your talking 200K + miles, how the vehicle was maintained is far more important than the vehicles make. Having said that when you look at various sources Japanese makes still come out on top in the reliability department. It is true however, that other manufacturers are catching up. IMO GM still isn't doing so hot in the reliability department, they would be near the bottom of my list. The new 1.5 turbo is having some pretty serious teething issues.


10 years later and Honda is still having VTC actuator issues.


Yes, I don't understand why they can't get that part right. Having said that, how many engines have we seen fail as a result? The K24 has been affected now for 9 years, and newer 1.5's have been affected for a short while as well. Just think of the THOUSANDS upon thousands of engines with this issue, yet few if any have failed as a result. Honda still ranks among the top in reliability.


Meh, Honda is usually midpack, at best. Buick always beats them.


Many Buicks are lower tier GM's in disguise. Well, they share powertrains / other parts anyways. Not sure how they are ranking above Honda.
 
Originally Posted By: gregk24

Many Buicks are lower tier GM's in disguise. Well, they share powertrains / other parts anyways. Not sure how they are ranking above Honda.


Every manufacturer has a few quirky issues, in the end they all average out to be about the same reliability wise. It's impossible to track which manufacturer or in this thread's case - an entire region of the world's cars with any degree of accuracy when in the end it's a negligible difference.
 
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071
Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: jeepman3071

An example is how he praises Toyota trucks. They are reliable, yes, but a quick search reveals lots of people who have had frame problems and Toyota denied any responsibility.



Wrong.

Dana Corp made the frames incorrectly. As a result, Toyota won a multi-million dollar lawsuit against Dana Corp for those incorrectly made frames, AND has replaced thousands of early Tacoma, Tundra, and Sequoia frames, or bought the trucks back at well over blue book.



Not wrong, look it up.

They did get sued and have a recall for the older trucks (previous gen Tacomas for example). The newer ones not so much. Yes, they have replaced some, but it is on a case by case basis. Many owners have gotten the "you drove it in salt" excuse in the northeastern states. This problem has been seen on trucks up to model year 2015 with 40k miles.


It was just as I said. I used to work in consumer car repair (one place was a Toyota Dealer), and have many friends that still do. Not everyone gets their frame replaced, because not every vehicle had a defective frame made by Dana Corp. There is also plenty of neglect by people that drive their vehicles in highly corrosive conditions, and do nothing to mitigate the effects of the highly corrosive environment. As is spelled out in every Owner's Manual. Those people are on their own, as are owners of other Makes that neglect their vehicles.

I've seen all makes and models rust out due to neglect in less than 10 years.

Bottom line, Toyota has replaced thousands of frames due to a Supplier defect, but frames that were made correctly but neglected by their owners in a highly corrosive environment, might be out of luck.
 
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I like facts. Truedelta.com contains extensive reliability data for all common makes and models. At my request, they took the data and were able to group cars within model generations and by overall model and brand reliability.

Fact:

1) Toyota makes the most reliable vehicles overall
2) Honda makes the second most reliable vehicles overall
3) Volkswagen has certain competitive models that are an order of magnitude (10x) less reliable than a comparable Toyota.
4) Reliability and longevity are not mutually exclusive. My Ford F150 now has over 330,000 miles. But those miles have not been trouble free.
5) The "million mile van" lasted 1,299,986 on it's original engine, a Ford 5.4L, using 10W-40 Valvoline oil (a markedly higher viscosity than the recommended 5W-20) . Significantly outlasting many competitors.

So, while American vehicles can last a very long time, when properly maintained, it seems Honda and Toyota have a lead on overall reliability.

Performed a search for reliability by brand, 2006 through 2016. On top, Toyota comes up with 20 shop visits per year, per 100 cars. Saab 70 shop visits per year per 100 cars.

Any way the search is performed, regardless of years chosen, Toyota and Honda and other Japanese brands top the list, with fewer shop visits and less expensive repairs. Often significantly so.
 
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Originally Posted By: Cujet
I like facts. Truedelta.com contains extensive reliability data for all common makes and models. At my request, they took the data and were able to group cars within model generations and by overall model and brand reliability.

Fact:

1) Toyota makes the most reliable vehicles overall
2) Honda makes the second most reliable vehicles overall
3) Volkswagen has certain competitive models that are an order of magnitude (10x) less reliable than a comparable Toyota.
4) Reliability and longevity are not mutually exclusive. My Ford F150 now has over 330,000 miles. But those miles have not been trouble free.
5) The "million mile van" lasted 1,299,986 on it's original engine, a Ford 5.4L, using 10W-40 Valvoline oil (a markedly higher viscosity than the recommended 5W-20) . Significantly outlasting many competitors.

So, while American vehicles can last a very long time, when properly maintained, it seems Honda and Toyota have a lead on overall reliability.

Performed a search for reliability by brand, 2006 through 2016. On top, Toyota comes up with 20 shop visits per year, per 100 cars. Saab 70 shop visits per year per 100 cars.

Any way the search is performed, regardless of years chosen, Toyota and Honda and other Japanese brands top the list, with fewer shop visits and less expensive repairs. Often significantly so.


^ Yup.

Once you start getting above 150,000-250,000 range, you start seeing more of an "willingness to repair" factor crop up. Any car can make it to 10 million miles if you are willing to pay the upkeep. The difference is that "reliability" is the ability to repair less to achieve the same number of miles. One of the prime examples of this are American trucks. They are typically not trouble free (opposite) but they often have a high willingness to repair so you see a lot of higher-mileage examples. We have a farm-truck that does DD duty as well in my family. It has over 220,000 miles... but it is on its second engine (at 160K). If that was a Camry, it would have been ditched.

The other end of the story; Japanese cars are and have historically been more forgiving to the gas-and-go crowd and will run in spite of poor maintenance. German vehicles are the exact opposite with American cars falling in-between (often being fairly neglect-resistant except in a couple of key areas). The reliability reputation of Japanese vehicles comes from the gas-and-go-maintenance-neglectors. They turn the key and it moves every single time. For them, taking it to Iffy-Lube is their "repair work". Those vehicles still run. Meanwhile in VW land, you need to do the 3 hour performance of the ignition dance in your ceremonial timing belt just to get the left headlight to work. If you do that, it is flawless but if you accidentally lead with you left-foot in the second stanza rather than your right foot, then you bend all the intake valves and have a rat chew through the brake lights.
 
You can run them forever but at what point is it not the original car and you are bragging on what ? - the repair industry and related parts ? **
To me - with skill sets in hand - BrocL is a wiser shopper taking them from 100k to 200k or when it just looks like time to cut losses. Once my travel days are over - that will be a better model for me ... not yet.

**This is my grandfather's axe. My father changed the handle - and I changed the head - but this is my grandfather's axe.
 
Interesting - going to have lunch with BIL - he wants advice on his 400k Chevy 1500 ... to date only wheel bearings - but a mechanic thinks 4L60e is ready - regardless - a good run ...
 
Originally Posted By: 4WD
You can run them forever but at what point is it not the original car and you are bragging on what ? - the repair industry and related parts ? **
To me - with skill sets in hand - BrocL is a wiser shopper taking them from 100k to 200k or when it just looks like time to cut losses. Once my travel days are over - that will be a better model for me ... not yet.

**This is my grandfather's axe. My father changed the handle - and I changed the head - but this is my grandfather's axe.


And your point is what? The repair industry and related parts is what fuels the old panther bodies longevity. Inexpensive repair fuels the willingness to repair.
 
Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
The other end of the story; Japanese cars are and have historically been more forgiving to the gas-and-go crowd and will run in spite of poor maintenance. German vehicles are the exact opposite with American cars falling in-between (often being fairly neglect-resistant except in a couple of key areas). The reliability reputation of Japanese vehicles comes from the gas-and-go-maintenance-neglectors. They turn the key and it moves every single time. For them, taking it to Iffy-Lube is their "repair work". Those vehicles still run. Meanwhile in VW land, you need to do the 3 hour performance of the ignition dance in your ceremonial timing belt just to get the left headlight to work. If you do that, it is flawless but if you accidentally lead with you left-foot in the second stanza rather than your right foot, then you bend all the intake valves and have a rat chew through the brake lights.


Very accurately putting my thoughts into words, with good humor as well.

Also, the "gas n' go" crowd's definition of a good vehicle almost always differs greatly from what a mechanic's definition would be. Was it quiet? Did it have a good sound system? Were the seats comfortable? Did it run a long time on cheap brake pads? That's not the same things a mechanic or seasoned enthusiast will care about, but it's a big part of what drives design trends and resale value.
 
Originally Posted By: ls1mike
That is one engine, you are forgetting the whole LS/LT serious of engines. The LTG 2.0 has been pretty trouble free.


The 1.5T engine is what comes in most of those cars. In fact I'd say 98% of the Malibu's in stock at the local dealer have the 1.5T engine.
 
IF.....you dont know what to look for.....if you or someone else does a very thorough pre inspection you can get incredible deals. car A could have been abused, car B could have been well cared for with highway miles,the odometer on each may read 200000 but most of car B's internals will be in far better shape....its all relative.
 
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Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: Cujet
I like facts. Truedelta.com contains extensive reliability data for all common makes and models. At my request, they took the data and were able to group cars within model generations and by overall model and brand reliability.

Fact:

1) Toyota makes the most reliable vehicles overall
2) Honda makes the second most reliable vehicles overall
3) Volkswagen has certain competitive models that are an order of magnitude (10x) less reliable than a comparable Toyota.
4) Reliability and longevity are not mutually exclusive. My Ford F150 now has over 330,000 miles. But those miles have not been trouble free.
5) The "million mile van" lasted 1,299,986 on it's original engine, a Ford 5.4L, using 10W-40 Valvoline oil (a markedly higher viscosity than the recommended 5W-20) . Significantly outlasting many competitors.

So, while American vehicles can last a very long time, when properly maintained, it seems Honda and Toyota have a lead on overall reliability.

Performed a search for reliability by brand, 2006 through 2016. On top, Toyota comes up with 20 shop visits per year, per 100 cars. Saab 70 shop visits per year per 100 cars.

Any way the search is performed, regardless of years chosen, Toyota and Honda and other Japanese brands top the list, with fewer shop visits and less expensive repairs. Often significantly so.


^ Yup.

Once you start getting above 150,000-250,000 range, you start seeing more of an "willingness to repair" factor crop up. Any car can make it to 10 million miles if you are willing to pay the upkeep. The difference is that "reliability" is the ability to repair less to achieve the same number of miles. One of the prime examples of this are American trucks. They are typically not trouble free (opposite) but they often have a high willingness to repair so you see a lot of higher-mileage examples. We have a farm-truck that does DD duty as well in my family. It has over 220,000 miles... but it is on its second engine (at 160K). If that was a Camry, it would have been ditched.

The other end of the story; Japanese cars are and have historically been more forgiving to the gas-and-go crowd and will run in spite of poor maintenance. German vehicles are the exact opposite with American cars falling in-between (often being fairly neglect-resistant except in a couple of key areas). The reliability reputation of Japanese vehicles comes from the gas-and-go-maintenance-neglectors. They turn the key and it moves every single time. For them, taking it to Iffy-Lube is their "repair work". Those vehicles still run. Meanwhile in VW land, you need to do the 3 hour performance of the ignition dance in your ceremonial timing belt just to get the left headlight to work. If you do that, it is flawless but if you accidentally lead with you left-foot in the second stanza rather than your right foot, then you bend all the intake valves and have a rat chew through the brake lights.


Haha, thanks for the laugh.
 
There's reliability, and there's "reliability".

Most people don't mind painted plastic parts on their interior falling out or having paint scratches off after a few years, but some people do. Most people don't think much about plastic sheath being electrical taped and zip tied, and got brittle and fell out after a few years. Most people can't notice wire harness or hose going through unusual spot and plastic with sharp edges, or flashing on the steering wheel, etc.

They are technically reliable, but owners especially women get sick and tired of these "refinement" and think of the car as worn out and unreliable. This is not really a domestic vs Japanese comparison, but it seems to me, on the cars that I usually shop for, domestic tends to cheap out on these minor things and make the cars age sooner than some of the Japanese brands, while Japanese tends to cut features instead.

If you have a wife and she's picky, let her pick what feels right to her, or else you'll end up driving her cars because she want a new one sooner than you want.
 
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Originally Posted By: FutureDoc
Originally Posted By: 4WD
Tell that to taxi drivers and law enforcement - what vehicles ?


Missed this. Never spent time around LE or government vehicle huh? I know Taxi folks around here have switched to Toyota around here. All Prius, Sienna or Camry Hybrid. Occasionally an Escape Hybrid. Plus most tend to buy off lease Hybrids/Toyotas too.


If any city follows SF/NYC rules, they're going to buy hybrids or CNG/LNG cars. UberX and Lyft drivers around here are predominately the Prius but it's a lot more diverse than the taxi fleet here.

I'm Asian too and I never got why people get new cars so often or after the warranty is up, if you leased a Audi/BMW/Mercedes or VW, I can see why - the cost of keeping the car running after the warranty is up. My cousin is paying $600 to lease an E350, while it's a staggering amount to pay for a car I don't blame her either as there's too much to go wrong as that car ages and where she lives it's all about status. I expect a 200K lifespan from my cars, I don't believe in "lifetime" fill fluids or things like that.

Back on topic, I feel Detroit - at least Ford and GM have made strides lately. Quality has improved, F&F has gotten better, there's still some cheap plasticky-ness but it's leaps and bounds vs. the 1980s-mid 2000s when the Detroit 3 was fond of chrome-plated or gray/black plastic and soft edges. I've driven a few newer GM products(Volt, Cruze, XTS) and I was happy with the experience and I've sat in newer Ford and FCA. Unlike my parents which are Toyota-only, I've managed to talk them into an Tesla I'd consider GM or Ford. I know GM and Ford didn't build great cars in terms of reliability - I'm always wrenching on a friend's GMT400 Tahoe - but every car needs to be reasonably maintained, neglect is what can accelerate their demise and this truck was abused. Cost cutting is here to stay, guys.

Toyota has been disappointing - I've felt they've sold out to Uber(despite sinking a good chunk of money into them), and they've gotten cheaper interior-wise. I was in a new Highlander Hybrid today and felt solid, but lots of faux-leather/wood, hard black plastic or unconvincing textured plastic. Toyota has been putting more effort towards Lexus but neglecting their bread and butter. On the flipside, I did drive a new ES350 back to the dealer to get my parent's car and while there was some cheapening out it did look and feel like something I expect from Toyota. Mechanically, I'd expect a new Toyota to live a reasonably long life with regular fluid changes - unlike GM/Ford and the Europeans I do trust Toyota's judgement on fluid changes - mostly.
 
Originally Posted By: dwcopple
I have a loaner 2017 Malibu LT 1.5L turbo.


I took one for a test drive and the salesman didn't come with me. Very boring, although the 2L turbo I bet is completely different. I wish I could get one that isn't all loaded up to the gills.
 
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