Let’s discuss high mileage modern engine life...

[Owenslee]

The question I raise relates to the durability of the late 2013 to 2017 Coyote engines.
Just how durable have they proven to be?

The 2011 to early 2013 engines had a large number of owner complaints about the dreaded “engine tick”. However 2013 engines built after 1/03/2013 and all 2014 to 2017 engines had very few of these reports.

I have personally seen a high mileage 4.6 4V MK8 Lincoln Teksid block with over 240K…that still had the original cross hatch on the cylinder walls…with no measurable cylinder ridge. So if maintained properly with good oil changes…I would suspect the Coyote can match the Modular 4.6 for durability in street applications.

I would think that running a Blackstone oil analysis on any high mileage Coyote would reveal any problems and if it came back with a clean bill of health… would then pose low risk for durability issues.

I have always believed that good routine maintenance is more important than high miles…as long as the engine has not been detonated, overheated or abused.

With modern fuel injection there is much less chance of washing the cylinder walls with fuel which was a killer on typical G3000 Cast Iron blocks of carbureted engines.

Plus…with harder centrifugally cast cylinder liners in aluminum blocks you have a much harder and more wear resistant surface than an old pushrod 302 block. Not to mention…better heat rejection from the aluminum blocks and heads used.

Then you consider too the improvement of ring technology with ductile cast iron or even moly faced rings being replaced by nitrided steel rings…resulting in improved detonation resistance with dramatically improved ring life over the last 15 years.

Add in the sophistication of new computer controls with far better fuel management than a carburetor could ever hope to provide… along with fast response detonation sensors…and the engines today have a dramatically improved chance for long term durability.

So the question is this:

How much difference in longevity would you expect to see between four late Coyote engines with 10k miles….50K miles…. 100K miles…or 200K miles..?

I ask…because there is a very substantial difference in prices being charged by salvage yards based on mileage…and the public’s questionable expectation that an engine is in need of a rebuild after 150-200k miles.

As an example... I have a 99 Cherokee which has been property maintained that has over 320K miles on the original engine, auto transmission and rear end…and that was old technology.

So…what are the thoughts of our resident engine / lubrication guru’s…??

BTW…in an earlier life I worked for the Ramco Piston Ring Division of TRW in their engine dyno lab back in the early to mid 70’s and built racing engines for a living in the late 70’s and early 80’s.

I am now in my 14th year as a retired manufacturing engineer…

 

[splinter]

TBO decreases with each revolution. And time takes its toll on the ancillaries and whatnot.

Leak down and compression testing tells the tale on used lumps and new.
Well maintained and 'adult driven' engines are typically preferable to 'low mileage' boneyard stock imho.

"The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older, shorter of breath and one day closer to death." -Pink Floyd

 

[Thax]

Im no expert on the coyote by any means. As far as modern engine durability is concerned, I think really it is a combination of factors. Many new cars are built now with direct injection turbocharged engines. I would be hesitant to say these will be as durable/long lasting as a multiport injection natural aspirated engine. Alot of factors too , maintenance , driving habits etc..
As someone who works on direct injection engines everyday, they just are not as reliable as their multi port counterparts.

 

[daves87rs]

Originally Posted By: Thax
Im no expert on the coyote by any means. As far as modern engine durability is concerned, I think really it is a combination of factors. Many new cars are built now with direct injection turbocharged engines. I would be hesitant to say these will be as durable/long lasting as a multiport injection natural aspirated engine. Alot of factors too , maintenance , driving habits etc..
As someone who works on direct injection engines everyday, they just are not as reliable as their multi port counterparts.


Seems people beat on them harder these days as well....

 

[Indydriver]

Originally Posted By: Thax
Im no expert on the coyote by any means. As far as modern engine durability is concerned, I think really it is a combination of factors. Many new cars are built now with direct injection turbocharged engines. I would be hesitant to say these will be as durable/long lasting as a multiport injection natural aspirated engine. Alot of factors too , maintenance , driving habits etc..
As someone who works on direct injection engines everyday, they just are not as reliable as their multi port counterparts.

This feels about right to me. Two examples I'm familiar with:

2008 Mazdaspeed3 2.4L turbo, DI 4 (designed ca. 2004)
-great performer generating 116 hp/L
-extremely tough on oil

2014 Chevy LS3 (4th Gen LS re-design ca. 2008)
-great performer but "only" 68 hp/L (stock)
-much easier on oil but an 8 qt sump helps

I expect the Chevy to last much longer, even with 50 hp of bolt-ons (now~75 hp-L).

 

[Alex_V]

The number of '88-'99 Chevy trucks, Dodge Caravans, and 6 cyl. Jeep Cherokees on the market with less than 200,000 miles and an engine rebuild or replacement in their past says that the general public can destroy an engine in that 150-200K time frame no matter how it's built. As far as buying used/salvage engines, one out of a 400,000 mile work truck might have more life left in it than a 75,000 mile granny car - it just has to be taken on a case-by-case basis.

 

[aquariuscsm]

I too,have wondered about this. Especially these huge full sized sedans with tiny 2 liter turbo 4 bangers,where in the past would only have a huge V8 that'd push the car along at highway speeds barely idling. I'd think that'd be about as stressed as an engine could get.

 

[supton]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
I too,have wondered about this. Especially these huge full sized sedans with tiny 2 liter turbo 4 bangers,where in the past would only have a huge V8 that'd push the car along at highway speeds barely idling. I'd think that'd be about as stressed as an engine could get.


Dunno--most of those transmissions are quick to downshift when power is needed.

Since the OEM has full control over transmission programming I'd think they'd known when a downshift is required to prevent engine damage. Not only that but I bet lugging has an impact on emissions (somehow) (no such thing as a free lunch).

IMO we all got used to setups that didn't need to downshift on hills. That was because it was too costly to use transmissions with "lots" of gears. As a result, large gear splits were the norm; and to some extent, top gear had to be somewhat shorter than necessary (due to lack of gear number). Today our transmissions go to 11.

 

[CT8]

Having to meet the emission standards requires a more precise higher quality engine.Everything revolves around emissions.No more no less just emissions . Engines lasted a long time in the old days if they were maintained.

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: Thax
Im no expert on the coyote by any means. As far as modern engine durability is concerned, I think really it is a combination of factors. Many new cars are built now with direct injection turbocharged engines. I would be hesitant to say these will be as durable/long lasting as a multiport injection natural aspirated engine. Alot of factors too , maintenance , driving habits etc..
As someone who works on direct injection engines everyday, they just are not as reliable as their multi port counterparts.
I remember in the late eighties taking continuing auto classes we would discuss how unreliable the fuel injection was. The good old days was the Non electric Bosch CIS fuel injection ! Give the DI 10 years of so . I like Carburetors and points myself ,The last points were in my 74 Chevy pickup and the last carb in my 79 ford pick up. FI seems to work better though.

 

[BrocLuno]

Buying used motors is a "you puts your money down, and you takes your chances" kinda thing ...

There is no way of knowing if it was overheated once, or a few times, or run at redline for hours pulling, etc.

You buy a used engine and you pull the pan, do the rods and mains and by then you'll know. If it's all shiny and smooth, cool. If it's scratched and the bearing shells were down to the copper, you're going further into it ...

Always do a new timing chain and replace the oil pump. New front and rear seals. The rest you can get to once in place, if you have to...

 

[Alex_V]

I'd like to think the modern school of smaller engines pushing bigger cars = possibly shorter lifespan is at least partially counteracted by material and design technology increasing the durability of the innards with the increased stress. However, just as an example several engines designed in what could be called the "old school" that remained in production into more recent times would indicate that engine design of 30-40 years ago was equally or more durable and longetic than fully modern design when allowed the advantages of modern lubrication and induction/fuel systems: GM small block, Jeep 2.5/4.0, Chrysler LA>Magnum, etc.

 

[Superflan]

Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Especially these huge full sized sedans with tiny 2 liter turbo 4 bangers,


Euro cars with L4 NA or turbo < 2 liters, petrol or diesel, manual transmission, even lugged, gets at least to 300000km without much worry. This has been going since... late 90s?

 

[mitsu4me]

agreed...i would think efficiency and durability/reliability go hand in hand most of the time...kinda like the evolution of machines.

 

[CR94]

Originally Posted By: Owenslee
... I have personally seen a high mileage 4.6 4V MK8 Lincoln Teksid block with over 240K…that still had the original cross hatch on the cylinder walls…with no measurable cylinder ridge. ...
With modern fuel injection there is much less chance of washing the cylinder walls with fuel which was a killer on typical G3000 Cast Iron blocks of carbureted engines.…
Careful with the assumptions there ... My last carbureted, iron-block engine went over twice that far with, yes, "the original cross hatch on the cylinder walls…with no measurable cylinder ridge." I did try to minimize unnecessary short trips and associated "washing of the cylinder walls."

 

[fdcg27]

There are so many variables that influence engine life that I don't know that we can generalize.
Original design and materials used matter. Maintenance matters as does the way in which the engine is used through its life. Fueling matters and I would think that any given engine would last longer with PFI than with a carburetor or TBI and this is a comparison we can make for engines produced through the era of the great changeover.
High specific output isn't necessarily a barrier to long life in that most users rarely use most of any engine's potential output. I doubt that you'd see much difference in engine life between a little turbo V-6 and a largish V-8 in typical use and we're also well positioned to make this comparison between EcoBoost Fords and V-8 GM and Chrysler products.
In the case you mention, who knows?
I'd feel comfortable with a 50K engine out of a wrecked vehicle, but a higher mileage one might also have many miles ahead of it. You do see plenty of used engines sold complete with good compression tests that have obviously not had regular oil changes. How long one of these might last is anyone's guess. Might clean up nicely and run for a very long time, or the damage might already have been done.
Yard engines may well come with a compression test but you'll rarely if ever get any service or maintenance history.

 

[artificialist]

Originally Posted By: Superflan
Originally Posted By: aquariuscsm
Especially these huge full sized sedans with tiny 2 liter turbo 4 bangers,


Euro cars with L4 NA or turbo < 2 liters, petrol or diesel, manual transmission, even lugged, gets at least to 300000km without much worry. This has been going since... late 90s?

Even earlier than the 1990s...

Volvo made many turbo bricks during the 1980s and the engines lasted for ages.