Necessity of Copper removal from the bore

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Aug 7, 2016
Messages
104
Location
New Hampshire
I recently got "Caught" by my uncle cleaning my rifle without using a copper removal solution on one of my rifles and got a speech on how not removing the copper fouling every time I shoot one of my guns will ruin accuracy. My general cleaning procedure is a good scrub of the moving parts with Breakfree CLP, 20min soak of CLP in the bore with patches run through till they're clean, and Shooters Choice FP-10 for lube where needed. Is there validity to the argument that copper removal is super crucial every time I clean a gun? Correct me if I'm wrong but if the copper builds up enough will the next bullet that goes through the bore not either polish it down into the bore or take it out the end of the barrel itself? Looking for some insight here.
 
Biggest problem with 5.56 FMJ in the M16 was chamber deposits causing difficult loading and extraction, bore deposits didn't seem to be a problem. The again, the '16 at the time wasn't being used at long range.
 
Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Biggest problem with 5.56 FMJ in the M16 was chamber deposits causing difficult loading and extraction, bore deposits didn't seem to be a problem. The again, the '16 at the time wasn't being used at long range.

The rifle in question is an Arsenal SLR107 (AK). however the process is the same for all my pistols and rifles
 
It depends on the degree of accuracy you're talking about. If you're looking at 1/2" groups or better at 100 yards it matters, if you're talking 2" groups at 100 yards, not as much. Having said that when I clean my bore I want it clean of carbon, copper, and any other fouling. A few of my Bench Rest shooting buddies told me copper builds up in layers, so shooting isn't going to remove it, it will build it up more. By the time it builds up enough of a layer to be removed by shooting, accuracy will suffer greatly, and cleaning it will be harder.
 
It depends on which school of thought you subscribe to.

On an SLR107, I would stick to using the CLP and not worry too much about bore fouling.

But if I owned a F class bench rest rifle and competed for trophies, then I would have a strict regimen of bore cleaning. The only reason for this being the ability to control as many variables as possible in pursuit of accuracy.
 
That brings up a question I've had for a while. Using any decent cleaning solvent shouldn't a brass bore brush clean out the copper pretty well? Brass is harder than copper, but quite a bit softer than steel. I'd like to know for myself.
 
Originally Posted By: NissanHauler
I recently got "Caught" by my uncle cleaning my rifle without using a copper removal solution on one of my rifles and got a speech on how not removing the copper fouling every time I shoot one of my guns will ruin accuracy. My general cleaning procedure is a good scrub of the moving parts with Breakfree CLP, 20min soak of CLP in the bore with patches run through till they're clean, and Shooters Choice FP-10 for lube where needed. Is there validity to the argument that copper removal is super crucial every time I clean a gun? Correct me if I'm wrong but if the copper builds up enough will the next bullet that goes through the bore not either polish it down into the bore or take it out the end of the barrel itself? Looking for some insight here.


copper build up in the grooves of the rifling will interfere with the engraving of the bullet as it travels down the barrel, which can affect your accuracy and shot grouping.
 
Does it matter the muzzle velocity? Is copper an issue for pistol caliber carbines? I know that Hodgdon has copper fouling eraser powders for 223 rifle and pistol. I've used the pistol powder and can tell you it burns really clean and is an easy cleanup, but I can't tell if it prevents copper buildup. Has anyone experience using it in 223?
 
Originally Posted By: 2cool
Does it matter the muzzle velocity? Is copper an issue for pistol caliber carbines? I know that Hodgdon has copper fouling eraser powders for 223 rifle and pistol. I've used the pistol powder and can tell you it burns really clean and is an easy cleanup, but I can't tell if it prevents copper buildup. Has anyone experience using it in 223?


I just got through burning up an 8 pound jug of the stuff, and I'm definitely going to buy more. Up until this point I was using H-335, because it flows so well through my measure on my Dillon. C-223 flows just as good, and when I was done cleaning I got no blue coloring on my patches with Bore Tech Eliminator. That's a first for me. The stuff really works. Not only that, I've read if you use it in a copper fouled bore, it will actually remove the copper fouling as you shoot over time. I believe it. I'm betting whatever is in the stuff, will be in all powders industry wide in a few years. It's only a matter of time when something works this well. It will be much the same with the heat resistant Polymer tips on the new Hornady ELD bullets. Pretty soon Sierra and Nosler will all have them.
 
There are a number of trends coming together here, and in the near future... One is "green" ammo. Gilded lead or lead core will not be allowed in Cali after 2018. So all ammo will be something else. A lot of hunters will go to Barnes TSX or similar. You think you have copper fouling now ...
laugh.gif


They'll be driving bullets down rough nasty old family rifles with bores that are not shiny ... 270's and 243's will be hitting 3K or better. Copper will be being deposited.

I'll be the sale of electro copper cleaners will be a big deal... Industrial Ammonia and a 3v battery with an SS tig rod with O rings to keep it from touching will become the norm. It'll get ALL the copper in about 1/2 and hour
smile.gif
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
I'll be the sale of electro copper cleaners will be a big deal... Industrial Ammonia and a 3v battery with an SS tig rod with O rings to keep it from touching will become the norm. It'll get ALL the copper in about 1/2 and hour
smile.gif



The problem with electro chemical bore cleaners, is people would leave them operate too long, and actually start removing barrel steel with them. Thereby trashing the barrel. It's the main reason Outers discontinued their Foul Out Electro Bore Cleaner. Their first unit was 110 volt operated, and it actually worked "too well". So they went to a battery operated unit, and that hardly worked at all. They quickly found themselves between a rock and a hard place with the whole design. And it really wasn't always the customers fault, because you never really knew how long to run it. A lot of the time if you followed the manufacturers instructions on a heavily copper fouled bore, it wasn't enough to get all the copper out. If you went longer you were on your own. Guesswork and damage to the bore was often the result.

Another major drawback was it required specialized chemicals that were expensive, messy, smelly, poisonous, and difficult to handle. It wasn't that easy to fill a rifle barrel with them either. Many people had the stuff leak into their actions and stocks. The chemicals were also difficult to dispose of in many places. You couldn't just simply pour them down the drain. At least not legally. Some were even classified as carcinogenic. You found yourself basically running a mini plating operation. So the whole thing went away. I knew a couple of guys at my gun club who bought and tried them, (The Outers units). They didn't damage their barrels, but the whole process turned out to be such a PITA, they simply threw the units away in disgust. It was a good idea. But it was a lousy design that was difficult to execute.
 
Reminds me of back when we went to steel shot for waterfowl ... well, at least my replacement barrel had a vent rib
wink.gif
 
Make one yourself from a piece of 1/8" SS TIG rod, a dozen O-Rings that fit the rod tightly, some rubber stoppers that fit the muzzle end, and a 6vdc battery charger. Whole thing, maybe $25 if you have a motorcycle 1 amp charger ...

Use commercial industrial cleaning ammonia. Run 1/2 hour first. Then 10 minute intervals, with new solution until it quits changing color (solution).

You only do this to badly fouled bores. They are PIA no matter how you approach it. I'd pull that barrel and action out of the stock unless plastic stock... While it's working, strip the bolt and clean it. Clean the mag well and bottom metal, etc. Lube it all and re-assemble
smile.gif
 
Kind of a tangent I know, but is it true that some barrels shoot better "dirty" or with some copper on them? I've heard this said of the .17 HMR.
 
I've found Bore Tech Eliminator to be the best and fastest copper remover I've ever tried. You can't harm your barrel with it. And the stuff not only doesn't contain any ammonia, it actually has rust inhibitors in it. Since using it there is no way I would mess with a electro bore cleaner. I've since either given away, or thrown out all of my ammonia based copper removing solvents.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2093155799/bore-tech-eliminator-bore-cleaning-solvent-liquid
 
Originally Posted By: The_Eric
Kind of a tangent I know, but is it true that some barrels shoot better "dirty" or with some copper on them? I've heard this said of the .17 HMR.


Yeah most barrels shoot better after a few fouling shots have been run through them. Most hunting rifles take 5-10 shots to reach peak accuracy and they stay there for several hundred shots. It all depends on how precise the barrel was initially made, a little copper fouling fills in any small imperfections and can make a barrel that runs cleaner and more consistently in the long run.
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
I've found Bore Tech Eliminator to be the best and fastest copper remover I've ever tried. You can't harm your barrel with it. And the stuff not only doesn't contain any ammonia, it actually has rust inhibitors in it. Since using it there is no way I would mess with a electro bore cleaner. I've since either given away, or thrown out all of my ammonia based copper removing solvents.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2093155799/bore-tech-eliminator-bore-cleaning-solvent-liquid


Thought I read where Bore Tech Eliminator is eco-friendly, non-smelly and non-toxic.

Many copper cleaners out there will darn-near choke us to death. No kudos for them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top