Do you think Toyota is on to something?

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Toyota has made the hybrid work with the Prius. You can pick at the details like the battery and the tree hugger image but they did a pretty good job, all things considered.

Now it's hydrogen and Toyota is smart enough not to bet on a dud. For a daily driver this new vehicle might be a solution as soon as the infrastructure and the economy of scale take effect.

If Toyota can make a reliable vehicle out of this I'd imagine that the cost of maintenance would have to be a whole lot cheaper. Such a vehicle might make 500K miles look reasonable and we could be looking at a million mile vehicle. On top of that Toyota would not have to pull a VW to pass smog.
 
Your right. Toyota isn't stupid by any stretch. However-Toyota has 60 BILLION IN CASH RESERVES. Perhaps this buys them privileges for taking chances.


And your right-the Prius is one reliable automobile. There is no argument there-even from the Toyota haters.
 
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I thought hydrogen was made by electrolysis of water. Thought helium was mined.


Yes, Helium is mined.

Hydrogen "can" be made by electrolysis of water, but the amount of energy (electricity) needed is E N O R M O U S compared with how little usable hydrogen you get.

There's a lot of ways to make hydrogen, but NONE of them are "free" or even really "low energy" or "low pollution" at this point in time.
 
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
I thought hydrogen was made by electrolysis of water. Thought helium was mined.


Yes, Helium is mined.

Hydrogen "can" be made by electrolysis of water, but the amount of energy (electricity) needed is E N O R M O U S compared with how little usable hydrogen you get.

There's a lot of ways to make hydrogen, but NONE of them are "free" or even really "low energy" or "low pollution" at this point in time.



^That. Why use electricity to strip hydrogen from water when you can just power the cars with the electricity?

Why make hydrogen from natural gas when you can just burn the natural gas to make the car go?

You just end up dumping CO2, produced in the process, into the environment. Something to the tune of 95% of hydrogen is made in the U.S. in steam reforming using fossil fuels.

Obviously, they're betting on hydrogen long term when hopefully it can be produced using green electricity, but I just fail to see the point. Generate electricity, then use that.

The only caveat I can think of, and I don't know if this is the case, is if we were generating tons of hydrogen as a byproduct and just dumping it into the atmosphere.
 
Originally Posted By: CKN
Your right. Toyota isn't stupid by any stretch. However-Toyota has 60 BILLION IN CASH RESERVES. Perhaps this buys them privileges for taking chances.


And your right-the Prius is one reliable automobile. There is no argument there-even from the Toyota haters.


I have not seen much on actual costs to replace the hybrid battery in a Prius. Owning a car that may require a $3000 or whatever battery would kill the deal for me.
 
The reason for hybrid success was it did not take a special effort of end user and they had fuel prices climb to seal the deal with an administration who supported this technology with incentives for consumer.

Electric takes effort to plug them in so they get tripped. Finding currently more expensive hydrogen easily will make many hesistate beyond the fact that administration support(incentives) this go around is less likely.
 
According to this site, a gallon of gasoline equivalent costs $1.80 to produce using electrolysis assuming 3 cents kWh power cost.
Double that cost to get it to a retail pump, and 3 cents per kWh seems to be way too low, even off-peak and buying in huge quantities.
Upfront hydrogen car cost would be huge unless subsidized by taxpayer rebates or by charging more for gasoline powered cars.

Energy density is an issue as well, just storing enough onboard is problematic.
Liquid hydrogen has 1/4 the energy of gasoline.

http://heshydrogen.com/hydrogen-fuel-cost-vs-gasoline/
 
Originally Posted By: CKN
Your right. Toyota isn't stupid by any stretch. However-Toyota has 60 BILLION IN CASH RESERVES. Perhaps this buys them privileges for taking chances.


Good point; Toyota isn't stupid. I wonder though, if it's not a chance they are taking--but rather a calculated loss. Perhaps: perhaps they know H2 is a loser, but they have to look busy to the right people. When the flash in the pan is over, they can go work on other things--things they probably are working on anyhow, but then they can roll them out and be ahead of the game.
 
Hydrogen is a stupid way to power a vehicle. The fact is, if we modernized and utilized every way to obtain it from our existing fertilizer, power plants... we'd only be able to provide for 10% if all vehicles ran on it. The amount of electric used to make it is wasted and would be better used for charging battery powered vehicles. Why would you take a D cell and reduce it's power output to an A cell for?

What the auto makers could do is what many warehouses have been doing for decades. Swapping the battery. They do it on forklifts.
 
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
Such a vehicle might make 500K miles look reasonable and we could be looking at a million mile vehicle.


What basis do you have to speculate on that? Do you have any understanding of the degradation mechanisms of PEM fuel cells? What about retesting of pressure vessels?

Fuel cells are great for baseload power, but for vehicle use has a lot of baggage that makes the practicality, and the end efficiency, difficult to beat an HEV or PHEV.
 
Toyota wasn't really "on to something" with their hybrids. Their mpg is only impressive in NA because we have big displacement engines.
I had a Renault Clio as a rental this summer when we went to Europe and I got a 47mpg out of a simple 1.2L port injected engine mated to a 5 speed manual tranny, driven normally and beaten to redline when accelerating to higher speeds. EU market is full of cars like this one, hence Toyota's hybrids don't do well there.

NA market is changing as well and we are seeing more and more small, turbocharged engines that get extremely good mpg. Problem with NA is that we do not want to sacrifice the acceleration. People getting Prius hybrids have no problem with 0-60 times being in the 10 second plus range, but for every other car out there, more than 8 is considered slow. Europe has more realistic expectations, people that want good mpg, don't expect less than 10 second 0-60 times.
 
Originally Posted By: madRiver
The reason for hybrid success was it did not take a special effort of end user and they had fuel prices climb to seal the deal with an administration who supported this technology with incentives for consumer.

Electric takes effort to plug them in so they get tripped. Finding currently more expensive hydrogen easily will make many hesistate beyond the fact that administration support(incentives) this go around is less likely.


No. Hybrid cars get you 50 MPG and reasonable performance in light of ever heavier and bulkier vehicles that have to meet ever growing safety concerns. Im still loving my 45-50 MPG HAH even as fuel prices have dropped. Instant torque at 0 RPM makes for decently performing daily drivers, not necessarily fitting everyone for everything, but useful for a lot.

There have been some silly ones that compromise utility for efficiency, and others that were intended to give "high performance" at the expense of superior MPGs. People can claim about the ROI for a hybrid, but the hybrid models arent always set up and outfit exactly the same, so it is much more of a case-by-case basis. The battery longevity issue has been pretty much proven to be a moot point, and batteries are one of the most recyclable products out there.
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Toyota wasn't really "on to something" with their hybrids. Their mpg is only impressive in NA because we have big displacement engines.
I had a Renault Clio as a rental this summer when we went to Europe and I got a 47mpg out of a simple 1.2L port injected engine mated to a 5 speed manual tranny, driven normally and beaten to redline when accelerating to higher speeds. EU market is full of cars like this one, hence Toyota's hybrids don't do well there.

NA market is changing as well and we are seeing more and more small, turbocharged engines that get extremely good mpg. Problem with NA is that we do not want to sacrifice the acceleration. People getting Prius hybrids have no problem with 0-60 times being in the 10 second plus range, but for every other car out there, more than 8 is considered slow. Europe has more realistic expectations, people that want good mpg, don't expect less than 10 second 0-60 times.


The issue is that a clio doesnt have the interior space of something like my HAH, which also gets 47 MPG.

Ill admit, I loved the renault twingo my wife and I had a few years back in France. But for us to fit, the front seats had to be touching the rear seatcushions.

Were getting 52 MPG diesels (e.g. Chevy Cruze) with space and power here in NA.

I agree that it is ridiculous people HAVE to have a V6 engine because they are scared of merging, or other such silliness. Somehow tractor trailers do it.

I do wish we had more small diesels in the USA. Even with emissions equipment, they are superior for thermal efficiency.

Your comments on acceleration are spot on.
 
I dunno, there are some truly awful on/off ramps out there. Foot down and hope for the best. I think if I lived in MA I'd have to have a V6 also--or a hybrid with 0rpm torque. Well, if I lived in MA I'd just have the hybrid, 50mpg regardless of traffic (city, highway, just watch the number of jackrabbit starts and try not to cruise at 80).
 
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