Which oil would you use?
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Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Use a racing oil at the track, and a stout street oil on the street. Two completely different use cases require different oils. There is no one-size fits all (just like tires, suspension setup, brake pads, etc.)
Are you sure about that? What if I told you that Mobil 1 considers 0W-40 a racing oil? https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/racing
robert
Use a racing oil at the track, and a stout street oil on the street. Two completely different use cases require different oils. There is no one-size fits all (just like tires, suspension setup, brake pads, etc.)
Are you sure about that? What if I told you that Mobil 1 considers 0W-40 a racing oil? https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/racing
robert
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Use a racing oil at the track, and a stout street oil on the street. Two completely different use cases require different oils.
Race oil is around 92% base oil with a complete anti wear package with very little acid neutralizer, detergents, and few other protections for sitting in a garage.
Street oil is around 85% base oil, a moderate anti wear package, and a complete protection package for when the vehicle sits in the garage.
Use a racing oil at the track, and a stout street oil on the street. Two completely different use cases require different oils.
Race oil is around 92% base oil with a complete anti wear package with very little acid neutralizer, detergents, and few other protections for sitting in a garage.
Street oil is around 85% base oil, a moderate anti wear package, and a complete protection package for when the vehicle sits in the garage.
Originally Posted By: 1JZ_E46
Use a racing oil at the track, and a stout street oil on the street. Two completely different use cases require different oils. There is no one-size fits all (just like tires, suspension setup, brake pads, etc.)
I keep seeing this "stout" thing on here. Mever seen it defined.
I guess it means "robust", as in lots of buffering, and maybe anti-wear and detergent (though that's API-limited) but it could be the euphemism for "fat" (not "phat"), as in high viscosity.
Or both.
As has been said, the main differentiator of race oil is low detergent and buffering /high anti wear, whereas this discussion has mostly been about viscosity, where there doesn't seem to be such a clear race/street difference, though the highest viscosities tend to be targeted at racing.
That said, it's evident from the marketing that some purveyors of "race oils" (not Mobil) wouldn't mind some sales to wannabe street users.
Use a racing oil at the track, and a stout street oil on the street. Two completely different use cases require different oils. There is no one-size fits all (just like tires, suspension setup, brake pads, etc.)
I keep seeing this "stout" thing on here. Mever seen it defined.
I guess it means "robust", as in lots of buffering, and maybe anti-wear and detergent (though that's API-limited) but it could be the euphemism for "fat" (not "phat"), as in high viscosity.
Or both.
As has been said, the main differentiator of race oil is low detergent and buffering /high anti wear, whereas this discussion has mostly been about viscosity, where there doesn't seem to be such a clear race/street difference, though the highest viscosities tend to be targeted at racing.
That said, it's evident from the marketing that some purveyors of "race oils" (not Mobil) wouldn't mind some sales to wannabe street users.
I did come across a mention of damage caused by high viscosity oils at operating temperature, which is new to me.
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/racing-oil-vs-street-oil-know-the-differences/
"Some smaller import and domestic engines do not tolerate viscosity changes well. For example tiny valve train components with very small clearances may experience a stacking (hydraulic) effect when heavier oil is used regularly. Over time this can result in valve train damage and even broken valves due to fatigue. Follow the engine manufacturers recommendations with regard to the weight of the oil you run."
I'd guess this means that the hydraulic wedge effect that is a good thing in a steady-state plain bearing, is too much of a good thing in a reciprocating assembly and resists movement, causing the valves to get hammered. Maybe VI temporary viscosity loss mitigates this.
Ooer. "Smaller" is undefined. I got 331 cc per cylinder on my car, 125 cc on my motorcycle, 2 valves per cylinder, but I ride like a granny so maybe I'm in the clear with my 40 straight weight.
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/racing-oil-vs-street-oil-know-the-differences/
"Some smaller import and domestic engines do not tolerate viscosity changes well. For example tiny valve train components with very small clearances may experience a stacking (hydraulic) effect when heavier oil is used regularly. Over time this can result in valve train damage and even broken valves due to fatigue. Follow the engine manufacturers recommendations with regard to the weight of the oil you run."
I'd guess this means that the hydraulic wedge effect that is a good thing in a steady-state plain bearing, is too much of a good thing in a reciprocating assembly and resists movement, causing the valves to get hammered. Maybe VI temporary viscosity loss mitigates this.
Ooer. "Smaller" is undefined. I got 331 cc per cylinder on my car, 125 cc on my motorcycle, 2 valves per cylinder, but I ride like a granny so maybe I'm in the clear with my 40 straight weight.
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Motor Oil Stout is made by Seanski Brewery ...
Originally Posted By: Ducked
I did come across a mention of damage caused by high viscosity oils at operating temperature, which is new to me.
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/racing-oil-vs-street-oil-know-the-differences/
"Some smaller import and domestic engines do not tolerate viscosity changes well. For example tiny valve train components with very small clearances may experience a stacking (hydraulic) effect when heavier oil is used regularly. Over time this can result in valve train damage and even broken valves due to fatigue. Follow the engine manufacturers recommendations with regard to the weight of the oil you run."
I'd guess this means that the hydraulic wedge effect that is a good thing in a steady-state plain bearing, is too much of a good thing in a reciprocating assembly and resists movement, causing the valves to get hammered. Maybe VI temporary viscosity loss mitigates this.
I'm thinking that they are referring to Electrohydraulic valve actuation...that's the only system I can imagine where "hydraulic stacking" could possibly occur...i.e. it can't drain back fast enough then gets a full lift impulse over the top of it.
Here's a paper with a control philosophy, which I can see allowing this to happen.
http://www.sae.org/dlymagazineimages/10311_12526_ACT.pdf
I did come across a mention of damage caused by high viscosity oils at operating temperature, which is new to me.
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/racing-oil-vs-street-oil-know-the-differences/
"Some smaller import and domestic engines do not tolerate viscosity changes well. For example tiny valve train components with very small clearances may experience a stacking (hydraulic) effect when heavier oil is used regularly. Over time this can result in valve train damage and even broken valves due to fatigue. Follow the engine manufacturers recommendations with regard to the weight of the oil you run."
I'd guess this means that the hydraulic wedge effect that is a good thing in a steady-state plain bearing, is too much of a good thing in a reciprocating assembly and resists movement, causing the valves to get hammered. Maybe VI temporary viscosity loss mitigates this.
I'm thinking that they are referring to Electrohydraulic valve actuation...that's the only system I can imagine where "hydraulic stacking" could possibly occur...i.e. it can't drain back fast enough then gets a full lift impulse over the top of it.
Here's a paper with a control philosophy, which I can see allowing this to happen.
http://www.sae.org/dlymagazineimages/10311_12526_ACT.pdf
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: Ducked
I did come across a mention of damage caused by high viscosity oils at operating temperature, which is new to me.
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/racing-oil-vs-street-oil-know-the-differences/
"Some smaller import and domestic engines do not tolerate viscosity changes well. For example tiny valve train components with very small clearances may experience a stacking (hydraulic) effect when heavier oil is used regularly. Over time this can result in valve train damage and even broken valves due to fatigue. Follow the engine manufacturers recommendations with regard to the weight of the oil you run."
I'd guess this means that the hydraulic wedge effect that is a good thing in a steady-state plain bearing, is too much of a good thing in a reciprocating assembly and resists movement, causing the valves to get hammered. Maybe VI temporary viscosity loss mitigates this.
I'm thinking that they are referring to Electrohydraulic valve actuation...that's the only system I can imagine where "hydraulic stacking" could possibly occur...i.e. it can't drain back fast enough then gets a full lift impulse over the top of it.
Here's a paper with a control philosophy, which I can see allowing this to happen.
http://www.sae.org/dlymagazineimages/10311_12526_ACT.pdf
Dunno. I'd have thought they'd have mentioned it if that's what they were referring to, but I suppose that can't be relied on.
I don't know much about new stuff. (I'll have a look at the link later. I have a class impending.) Is that technology widespread in small engines?
Originally Posted By: Ducked
I did come across a mention of damage caused by high viscosity oils at operating temperature, which is new to me.
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/racing-oil-vs-street-oil-know-the-differences/
"Some smaller import and domestic engines do not tolerate viscosity changes well. For example tiny valve train components with very small clearances may experience a stacking (hydraulic) effect when heavier oil is used regularly. Over time this can result in valve train damage and even broken valves due to fatigue. Follow the engine manufacturers recommendations with regard to the weight of the oil you run."
I'd guess this means that the hydraulic wedge effect that is a good thing in a steady-state plain bearing, is too much of a good thing in a reciprocating assembly and resists movement, causing the valves to get hammered. Maybe VI temporary viscosity loss mitigates this.
I'm thinking that they are referring to Electrohydraulic valve actuation...that's the only system I can imagine where "hydraulic stacking" could possibly occur...i.e. it can't drain back fast enough then gets a full lift impulse over the top of it.
Here's a paper with a control philosophy, which I can see allowing this to happen.
http://www.sae.org/dlymagazineimages/10311_12526_ACT.pdf
Dunno. I'd have thought they'd have mentioned it if that's what they were referring to, but I suppose that can't be relied on.
I don't know much about new stuff. (I'll have a look at the link later. I have a class impending.) Is that technology widespread in small engines?
Originally Posted By: Ducked
I did come across a mention of damage caused by high viscosity oils at operating temperature, which is new to me.
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/racing-oil-vs-street-oil-know-the-differences/
This is what I found amazing in that link.
"Today’s Cup engines run 5W-20 synthetic oil and make close to 900 horsepower."
I did come across a mention of damage caused by high viscosity oils at operating temperature, which is new to me.
http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/racing-oil-vs-street-oil-know-the-differences/
This is what I found amazing in that link.
"Today’s Cup engines run 5W-20 synthetic oil and make close to 900 horsepower."
Yeah, I don't think I'll be going to a 5W-20 in the NSX anytime soon.
robert
robert
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Originally Posted By: billt460
This is what I found amazing in that link.
"Today’s Cup engines run 5W-20 synthetic oil and make close to 900 horsepower."
They use very tight engine build tolerances and run big oil radiators.
F1 engines run something close to 7 weight oil in the race and 2-3 weight oil in qualifying.
Needless to say, the oil is changed about every time the engine is stopped and allowed to cool.
This is what I found amazing in that link.
"Today’s Cup engines run 5W-20 synthetic oil and make close to 900 horsepower."
They use very tight engine build tolerances and run big oil radiators.
F1 engines run something close to 7 weight oil in the race and 2-3 weight oil in qualifying.
Needless to say, the oil is changed about every time the engine is stopped and allowed to cool.
To the OP I ran a 99 Z28 that I built an LS6 for on track for 5 years, car didnt have a cooler or even an oil temp gauge. I ran all different kinds of oil in that car and it did fine.
Currently I track a 2003 Corvette Z06 with no oil cooler. The oil temps hover around 280-290 degrees if it's warm outside, I run Mobil 1 0-40 Euro in the car.
I actually called Mobil oil to find out the very question you asked and was told almost identical info. I requested to speak to someone who had race car knowledge and was put with a guy who actually does HPDE days. I was told that the 0-40 Euro is the oil that would be recommended for my application and the oil would be fine to 300 degrees with my oil change interval (after 2 weekends).
He actually said the oil would protect up to it's flash point....but I'll never test it that far.
Currently I track a 2003 Corvette Z06 with no oil cooler. The oil temps hover around 280-290 degrees if it's warm outside, I run Mobil 1 0-40 Euro in the car.
I actually called Mobil oil to find out the very question you asked and was told almost identical info. I requested to speak to someone who had race car knowledge and was put with a guy who actually does HPDE days. I was told that the 0-40 Euro is the oil that would be recommended for my application and the oil would be fine to 300 degrees with my oil change interval (after 2 weekends).
He actually said the oil would protect up to it's flash point....but I'll never test it that far.
Originally Posted By: FASTFATBOY
I actually called Mobil oil to find out the very question you asked and was told almost identical info. I requested to speak to someone who had race car knowledge and was put with a guy who actually does HPDE days. I was told that the 0-40 Euro is the oil that would be recommended for my application and the oil would be fine to 300 degrees with my oil change interval (after 2 weekends).
He actually said the oil would protect up to it's flash point....but I'll never test it that far.
Cool. I'm going to run it again and see how it goes, but instead of shutting down at 275F, I'll run it up to 290F or so. Who knows, maybe it'll level out.
robert
I actually called Mobil oil to find out the very question you asked and was told almost identical info. I requested to speak to someone who had race car knowledge and was put with a guy who actually does HPDE days. I was told that the 0-40 Euro is the oil that would be recommended for my application and the oil would be fine to 300 degrees with my oil change interval (after 2 weekends).
He actually said the oil would protect up to it's flash point....but I'll never test it that far.
Cool. I'm going to run it again and see how it goes, but instead of shutting down at 275F, I'll run it up to 290F or so. Who knows, maybe it'll level out.
robert
Redline.
Originally Posted By: Olas
Redline.
And your reasons for that would be?
Redline.
And your reasons for that would be?
I'm not familiar with Redline. I did ask about Red Line, though!
robert
robert
The thing about trying all of these different oils is, how are you going to know which one is better / worse, unless you run that oil, and ONLY that oil, for the entire life of that particular engine? Then completely disassemble it and gauge everything, and compare it to another engine you've run a different oil in for the life of it. With all other things equal. That could take years, and wind up costing tens of thousands of dollars. Let's face it. There is no way anyone can tell what oil is in the car by sitting in the drivers seat. My truck is a 1991, and is 26 years old. In that time I've probably run over 15 different brands and weight of oil in it. Some regular, some synthetic. With maybe a half dozen different brands of oil filters.
The truck runs like a top. It still has plenty of power. It doesn't use any oil, and passes emissions every year by a large, comfortable margin. So after 26 years of driving, there is no way I could begin to tell anyone, "what is the best oil they should use". There are probably over 100 different kinds that will all work equally as well.
Yeah, I get that this is a track car, and will be raced. Buy why wouldn't the same thing apply, and apply even more so? Being as everything is being pushed to the limit.
The truck runs like a top. It still has plenty of power. It doesn't use any oil, and passes emissions every year by a large, comfortable margin. So after 26 years of driving, there is no way I could begin to tell anyone, "what is the best oil they should use". There are probably over 100 different kinds that will all work equally as well.
Yeah, I get that this is a track car, and will be raced. Buy why wouldn't the same thing apply, and apply even more so? Being as everything is being pushed to the limit.
I basically agree with what you're saying, which is why I asked the question in the first place: someone might have relevant experience. We could go back and forth all day about the pros and cons of each oil "in theory". Mobil 1 is backed by a huge R&D department, it's got lots of specs, it's used by big names with success, etc. Red Line is smaller and more free to build a perfect oil, it's got a crazy high HTHS, etc. But who knows, really?
UOAs might give some sort of indication, but probably only if something was terribly wrong, I think?
robert
UOAs might give some sort of indication, but probably only if something was terribly wrong, I think?
robert
Prior '90 model ZX owner here. As I've mentioned here before, I started it on Castrol 20-50 which seemed to do well. I later switched to RL 0-40 in that and the '92 SE-R I also bought in that period (and still have at 250+ miles). I ran both cars hard during my second childhood and have been happy with the RL. I have a new case of it received this week. In the final analysis I feel that the HTHS of 4.0 plus the stout add pack were worth it. Just my experience. I'm sure there are many good choices.
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