Too much use of Top Tier?

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Originally Posted By: wemay

Boy, that's terrible! Luckily around here there is no difference between the non-TT Marathon and the Chevron or Shell around the corner (there's another Shell that's more expensive due to location). Heck, Costco is cheaper still and they are TT as well.


My mistake, I was thinking between 87 octane and premium.

I'll have to look for the logo - - many "Shell" and Chevron" stations around here are only licensed mom-&-pop stores that may nor necessarily offer top tier. The same "Coastal Transport" trucks that fill these stations fill all the cheaper stations as well. The stations that DO INDEED fall under corporate rules do typically have gas .15 to .20 higher than "economy" gas stations
 
Originally Posted By: Linctex
For $0.30 a gallon difference, it's not worth it. My truck holds 26 gallons, x 30 cents = $7.80 per fill-up.

No thanks - - - I'll just run a bottle of Techron every 5K-7K miles.

X2
 
The sonata is the first car I have owned in years that is picky about fuel.

My toyotas could care less what kind of 87 I fed them.

The sonata pings bad on 87, slightly on 89 and not at all on 93.

I have been buying top tier fuel at costco. I think I paid $2.29 per gallon for the 93, so not too bad.
 
Originally Posted By: BobFout
While it's a shame TT fuel is more expensive there, it could be the same price as non TT fuel elsewhere...

Here, fuel is much the same at every station, generally exactly the same. Actually finding non-TT fuel here can take a bit of work. The only major here that isn't TT is Husky/Mohawk, and I wouldn't think they're exactly skimping on detergents, either.

Other than Husky/Mohawk, I don't think I've used a non-TT fuel for a very long time.
 
The only time Either doesn't get top-tier is once a month when I cash in the Kroger fuel points. The Hyundai actually requires either it or a fuel additive every 7,500 miles.
 
Cannot say it had anything to do with Top Tier, but when my local Farmer's Cooperative went to Cenex a couple of years ago, that started us using Top Tier a short time after that. Before that, had gone for years and years using non TT generic gasoline from them and other high volume retailers and never had any kind of fuel related issue. But last year, had the first fuel related issue I have had in 4 decades, with my Cadillac CTS that had been getting filled with Top Tier for over 6 months. Fuel delivery was erratic on the rail and it had to be cleaned out. Not a good showing for the Top Tier thing. Probably station tank related in some way or some other unknown variable, but the only change in what had been done with the car was the starting to use TT for a 1/2 year prior the fuel issue. But the experience just solidified in me that idea that the TT thing is not as big of a deal as is made out.
 
Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
Sorry if this has been discussed before, I tried looking but didn't find much information...

Can the use of Top Tier gas all the time cause any kind of build-up of detergents? I use Costco gas as its on my way home from work, its cheaper than everywhere else, and its top-tier rated. They actually say they have something like 5x more detergents than Top-Tier requires. Is there any reason not to run this gas all the time? I found a couple people here and there online saying that you'd end up with deposits or detergent build up, and that you should alternate every so many tanks with something with less detergents. I have no idea the validity of this claim, so I'm checking with everyone here.

I remember seeing the AAA study showing that top-tier can actually clean injectors/valves/pistons. But that is assuming it needs cleaning, what about a brand new car? I'm not super concerned its going to blow my car up or anything, but thought the topic was interesting.

They don't say 5x what TT requires, but 5x what EPA minimum requires. It's probably about 2x what TT requires.

They don't really require a set amount. It's just that the specified "treat rate" must pass a test done on real engines. The more that's used typically means there's diminishing returns.

Some older detergents used to have problems. One type was supposed to be really good at removing varnish from clogged injectors, but then left deposits behind in the combustion chamber. The polyether amines used in many modern detergents is supposed to both clean injectors and remove combustion chamber deposits without leaving behind deposits. There are other types of detergents available.

Chevron used to say that they didn't recommend their Techron Concentrate fuel treatment be used than more than once every 3000 miles, and preferably before an oil change. Something about affecting the oil additives. I guess before an oil change meant that the oil additives would be restored soon after the fuel treatment.
 
Depends upon what's being added as a detergent.
PEA causes no such issues.
There are others that may but probably won't.
The treat rates are also very low.
Even 5X almost nothing wouldn't likely cause any problems and Costco doesn't use anything like 5X the detergent adds required to meet Top Tier.
We have way too much concern about perceptions of fuel quality here.
Any high volume station of any brand is a good bet.
I've never had any problems with any gas or diesel bought from any station anywhere in any application, so I find it hard to understand the concern about fuel.
To paraphrase a noted Cincinnati resident, relax, it's just gas.
 
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
We have way too much concern about perceptions of fuel quality here.
Any high volume station of any brand is a good bet.
I've never had any problems with any gas or diesel bought from any station anywhere in any application, so I find it hard to understand the concern about fuel.
To paraphrase a noted Cincinnati resident, relax, it's just gas.

Of course Top Tier isn't specifying how much is used, but that the specified amount meets their requirements and that they guarantee that there's at least that much being used in pump fuel.

An old friend of mine was convinced that Chevron and Shell had the best fuel, and that Arco and Exxon were junk. That kind of ignores the way that fuel is sold as a commodity, and that most fuel in a certain area is going to be made with the same base fuel from the same refinery.

A lot of people are buying into the marketing that one brand is superior.
 
Originally Posted By: y_p_w
Originally Posted By: HemiHawk
Sorry if this has been discussed before, I tried looking but didn't find much information...

Can the use of Top Tier gas all the time cause any kind of build-up of detergents? I use Costco gas as its on my way home from work, its cheaper than everywhere else, and its top-tier rated. They actually say they have something like 5x more detergents than Top-Tier requires. Is there any reason not to run this gas all the time? I found a couple people here and there online saying that you'd end up with deposits or detergent build up, and that you should alternate every so many tanks with something with less detergents. I have no idea the validity of this claim, so I'm checking with everyone here.

I remember seeing the AAA study showing that top-tier can actually clean injectors/valves/pistons. But that is assuming it needs cleaning, what about a brand new car? I'm not super concerned its going to blow my car up or anything, but thought the topic was interesting.

They don't say 5x what TT requires, but 5x what EPA minimum requires. It's probably about 2x what TT requires.

They don't really require a set amount. It's just that the specified "treat rate" must pass a test done on real engines. The more that's used typically means there's diminishing returns.

Some older detergents used to have problems. One type was supposed to be really good at removing varnish from clogged injectors, but then left deposits behind in the combustion chamber. The polyether amines used in many modern detergents is supposed to both clean injectors and remove combustion chamber deposits without leaving behind deposits. There are other types of detergents available.

Chevron used to say that they didn't recommend their Techron Concentrate fuel treatment be used than more than once every 3000 miles, and preferably before an oil change. Something about affecting the oil additives. I guess before an oil change meant that the oil additives would be restored soon after the fuel treatment.



I wouldn't expect anyone to know this, but the deposits build up that may be referred to online is valve sticking or combustion chamber deposits. In the Top Tier testing protocols there are 2 tests designed to prevent this kind of issue - one is the Ford Combustion Chamber Deposit no-harms test - which requires that the Top Tier dose of additive can create no more than 140% of the deposits compared to no additive at all (this is only in the combustion chamber, not on pistons, valves or injectors -which is what these additives are designed to clean). The 2nd test is a intake valve sticking test where 2x the Top tier rate is tested to make sure that over-additization will not cause a loss of compression pressure in each cylinder. There is also a BMW CCD test which is similar to the Ford test for CARB requirements if you live in California.

Use TT gas on every fill (or even higher treat rates from places like Costco that offer it) without any concerns of additives causing deposits.
 
Chevron makes both types of fuel detergents.

PolybutylAmine (PBA) is the "bad" one that leaves its own deposits.

PolyetherAmine (PEA) is the good detergent, that doesn't leave its own deposits. This is the Techron detergent. This would also be the Top Tier detergent.

These days, I go to the local Sinclair station, which is the cheapest Top Tier 93 octane for me. About 30 cents savings over the local BP down the road and 40 cents over the Exxon closest to my house.
 
Originally Posted By: UG_Passat
Chevron makes both types of fuel detergents.

PolybutylAmine (PBA) is the "bad" one that leaves its own deposits.

PolyetherAmine (PEA) is the good detergent, that doesn't leave its own deposits. This is the Techron detergent. This would also be the Top Tier detergent.

These days, I go to the local Sinclair station, which is the cheapest Top Tier 93 octane for me. About 30 cents savings over the local BP down the road and 40 cents over the Exxon closest to my house.

I don't believe that there's any specific requirement for additive chemistry. It's strictly about meeting the test requirements. I'm pretty sure there are additive packages that meet the TT requirement that at least partially contain detergents other than PEA.

As far as "makes" go, I don't think that's quite accurate. Like lots of motor oil companies, Chevron buys from a supplier and blends. Chevron does have a chemical division, but I haven't heard that they make PEA. They probably buy from one of the big chemical companies like Huntsman or BASF.
 
Years ago Mike Miller (Respected BMW hackmechanic) reported the he developed a leaky injector which he believed was from excessive use of a fuel system cleaner (Redline product). This is the only time I've heard of a "too much of a good thing" problem as it pertains to fuel detergents.
 
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