calling on the experts. diesel oils in bikes??

[WANG]

Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
No, it wasn't just viscosity. Castrol synthetic 5W40 and 10W40 shifted far better than Rotella as well. Shifting quality of the Catrol products, even their 10W50, deteriorated far sooner than Liqui-Moly. Even at the end of the OCI though, any of the motorcycle specific oils I used were better than Rotella in those bikes. Maybe it was synthetic vs conventional issue. Triumph also called for semi-synthetic or synthetic.


Somewhat similar experience here. When I first started riding streetbikes back in the 90s, I used the Suzuki white bottle 10W40 in my Katana 600. On one oil change, I opted for Golden Spectro 10W40. The change in shift quality was DRAMATIC. I used synthetics from various brands in my bikes from that point up until a few years ago, when I started using Rotella 15W40 in some bikes, which seems fine in those particular machines.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: SlipperyPete
No, it wasn't just viscosity. Castrol synthetic 5W40 and 10W40 shifted far better than Rotella as well. Shifting quality of the Catrol products, even their 10W50, deteriorated far sooner than Liqui-Moly. Even at the end of the OCI though, any of the motorcycle specific oils I used were better than Rotella in those bikes. Maybe it was synthetic vs conventional issue. Triumph also called for semi-synthetic or synthetic.


Ok, understood and I certainly believe you. I never used a full syn, right now the Mystik is a semi and closest I ever ran to a syn.
The only thing, unless I missed it, is I did not see what kind of Rotella you were using. What weight?

Btw - it might be the marketing influencing me but I like what I see and read on LiqiMoly.

 

[SlipperyPete]

I only tried the 15W40 since it has been reported to resist shearing far better than the 5W40. I'm going to try it again on my next oil change in the Kawasaki Versys I have now. I will be thrilled to reduce my oil costs as long as it shifts well.

 

[jongies3]

Question for the experts:

I have a 2013 Honda 400EX sport quad that utilizes the same engine found in the old XR400 dirtbikes from back in the day. It's a very basic, dry sump air cooled engine as you probably know. Anyway, my question is after reading a few responses in this thread, is Rotella T6 safe for the demands of this blast furnace of an air cooled mill or should I look into something stouter? Some guys were commenting saying diesel oils don't handle shared engines (transmission/crankcase) and air cooled engines too well which my quad has both of. Depending on how much I ride, I change the oil every 6 months, sometimes once a month if I'm doing a lot of riding during the summer when it's nice. I'm currently on my second fill of T6 after loving the way the engine ran and "felt" on the first change, the transmission shifted so smoothly it was unreal. However, I've noticed on this fill after only a few rides, the transmission seems a bit notchier than it was last time.

Am I overthinking it and being paranoid? This thing is my baby, and so every little off the wall thing kinda makes me panic. If you believe T6 is a bad idea, please feel free to suggest something else! I'd prefer to stick with synthetics and something that's easy to come by in stores, so Amsoil, Redline, Motul, etc. are probably out of question, but, if they are that much better I'd try them. Looking for some input!

 

[alarmguy]

I dont think your being paranoid.
I guess I would be wondering what oil the engine calls for though.

Rotella oils and just about all the C Rated Commercial Diesel rated oils are very good oils and like all diesel oils they carry not only the API gasoline rating of SM (most cases) they carry the heavy duty API Diesel rating of CJ4 (most cases)

With that said, any oil with a spread like 5/40 or 5/50 etc is going to shear down a grade in shared sump engines and why you feel your shifting get notchy. This has NOTHING to do whether its Diesel rated or gasoline rated oil.
The shearing is the large spread from 5 to 40, vs 10/40 vs 15/40 etc The larger the spread the more the oil will shear. Will anything bad happen? no, your 5/40 will end up like a 5/30. Me personally though, I dont see the purpose of using a 5/40 if your not supposed too.

If your engine manufacturer calls for a 5/40 then shearing down is most like expected and they know the engine will being running a 5/30 oil after shearing.
However I suspect your engine does not call for a 5/40.

 

[jongies3]

Originally Posted By: alarmguy
I dont think your being paranoid.
I guess I would be wondering what oil the engine calls for though.

Rotella oils and just about all the C Rated Commercial Diesel rated oils are very good oils and like all diesel oils they carry not only the API gasoline rating of SM (most cases) they carry the heavy duty API Diesel rating of CJ4 (most cases)

With that said, any oil with a spread like 5/40 or 5/50 etc is going to shear down a grade in shared sump engines and why you feel your shifting get notchy. This has NOTHING to do whether its Diesel rated or gasoline rated oil.
The shearing is the large spread from 5 to 40, vs 10/40 vs 15/40 etc The larger the spread the more the oil will shear. Will anything bad happen? no, your 5/40 will end up like a 5/30. Me personally though, I dont see the purpose of using a 5/40 if your not supposed too.

If your engine manufacturer calls for a 5/40 then shearing down is most like expected and they know the engine will being running a 5/30 oil after shearing.
However I suspect your engine does not call for a 5/40.



It doesn't, calls for a 10W-30 which I believe was a push to make the EPA happy more than anything. I had a 2002 400EX prior, and it was specced for 10W-40 for normal use and 20W-50 for extreme hot weather. They carried those specs up until like 2011 I think was when the 10W-30 started and is slated for use in all temperatures in the manual now.

It never gets overly hot here in MT, and something about me feels more comfortable running a 40wt in this air cooled engine so that's why I do it. The manual highly recommends "Genuine Honda GN4 10W-30" but goes on to tell you that any JASO-MA rated oil is sufficient. I'm just not a fan of going to the dealer and paying $10 a quart for Honda's conventional oil when there are better options for less.

I may just try regular Rotella 15W-40 next change and see how she likes that.

 

[jongies3]

The engines have remain virtually unchanged since the quad came out in 1999 too I might add. The only big update they saw was Honda put in a reverse gear starting in 2005 and changed the gear ratios around a bit via sprocket size differences from the early models to the 05+ models.

 

[alarmguy]

Originally Posted By: jongies3
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
I dont think your being paranoid.
I guess I would be wondering what oil the engine calls for though.

Rotella oils and just about all the C Rated Comme...



It doesn't, calls for a 10W-30 which I believe was a push to make the EPA happy more than anything. I had a 2002 400EX prior, and it was specced for 10W-40 for normal use and 20W-50 for extreme hot weather. They carried those specs up until like 2011 I think was when the 10W-30 started and is slated for use in all temperatures in the manual now.

It never gets overly hot here in MT, and something about me feels more comfortable running a 40wt in this air cooled engine so that's why I do it. The manual highly recommends "Genuine Honda GN4 10W-30" but goes on to tell you that any JASO-MA rated oil is sufficient. I'm just not a fan of going to the dealer and paying $10 a quart for Honda's conventional oil when there are better options for less.

I may just try regular Rotella 15W-40 next change and see how she likes that.


Great reply and I fully understand what you are doing now and why. Good info now that I understand what oil it calls for and in the past what oils were called for.

You know? I re-read this a few times and I thought to myself, if I was you, I would most likely be doing the same exact thing, I did take notice last post of the moderate temps you must operate in too.

Anyway, I think everything you are doing makes 100% sense and again, think to myself, if it was me, chances are I would be doing the same. (not often that happens in these forums*LOL*)

Your engine calls for 10/30 but past models called for 10/40 or 20/50.

Your 5/40 Rotella in a worst case will shear to and stabilize at the same viscosity as a fresh batch of 10/30 and lets not forget, that fresh batch of 10/30 is going to shear too just not as drastic but may go to a 20..
We all know Rotella is a well respected oil and honestly I cant find any fault with what you are doing. I too wouldnt feel to peachy about using a 10/30.

Now with that out of the way, for me personally and what you mentioned about shifting, is a common complaint with some(a lot) synthetics and why I am not a big fan of syn in motorcycle transmissions/engines.
It doesnt seem to increase wear but things just do not "click" as nice.

So if you are looking for shift quality, I think without question you will much prefer the conv (or semi) 15/40.
Chances are that is what I would most likely end up with if I was in your shoes, no doubt, again, in your shoes I would have tried the 5/40 but I already kind of know I would end up with the 15/40 and truly believe that would be best for the engine/trans.

I run conventional (and semi syn) as a personal decision for good reasons (which I will skip in here or a whole other war might start*LOL*) I never look to extend drains and actually enjoy changing oil.

 

[jongies3]

Originally Posted By: alarmguy
Originally Posted By: jongies3
Originally Posted By: alarmguy
I dont think your being paranoid.
I guess I would be wondering what oil the engine calls for though.

Rotella oils and just about all the C Rated Comme...



It doesn't, calls for a 10W-30 which I believe was a push to make the EPA happy more than anything. I had a 2002 400EX prior, and it was specced for 10W-40 for normal use and 20W-50 for extreme hot weather. They carried those specs up until like 2011 I think was when the 10W-30 started and is slated for use in all temperatures in the manual now.

It never gets overly hot here in MT, and something about me feels more comfortable running a 40wt in this air cooled engine so that's why I do it. The manual highly recommends "Genuine Honda GN4 10W-30" but goes on to tell you that any JASO-MA rated oil is sufficient. I'm just not a fan of going to the dealer and paying $10 a quart for Honda's conventional oil when there are better options for less.

I may just try regular Rotella 15W-40 next change and see how she likes that.


Great reply and I fully understand what you are doing now and why. Good info now that I understand what oil it calls for and in the past what oils were called for.

You know? I re-read this a few times and I thought to myself, if I was you, I would most likely be doing the same exact thing, I did take notice last post of the moderate temps you must operate in too.

Anyway, I think everything you are doing makes 100% sense and again, think to myself, if it was me, chances are I would be doing the same. (not often that happens in these forums*LOL*)

Your engine calls for 10/30 but past models called for 10/40 or 20/50.

Your 5/40 Rotella in a worst case will shear to and stabilize at the same viscosity as a fresh batch of 10/30 and lets not forget, that fresh batch of 10/30 is going to shear too just not as drastic but may go to a 20..
We all know Rotella is a well respected oil and honestly I cant find any fault with what you are doing. I too wouldnt feel to peachy about using a 10/30.

Now with that out of the way, for me personally and what you mentioned about shifting, is a common complaint with some(a lot) synthetics and why I am not a big fan of syn in motorcycle transmissions/engines.
It doesnt seem to increase wear but things just do not "click" as nice.

So if you are looking for shift quality, I think without question you will much prefer the conv (or semi) 15/40.
Chances are that is what I would most likely end up with if I was in your shoes, no doubt, again, in your shoes I would have tried the 5/40 but I already kind of know I would end up with the 15/40 and truly believe that would be best for the engine/trans.

I run conventional (and semi syn) as a personal decision for good reasons (which I will skip in here or a whole other war might start*LOL*) I never look to extend drains and actually enjoy changing oil.



Yep, I think the plan for now will be to run 15w-40 when summer comes around and see how it likes it, then switch back to 5W for winter since I take it out now and then on various rides and would like to have that cold pump-ability for those nippy days. If the engine was liquid cooled, I wouldn't shudder at using 10W-30 since it's easier to control and keep the engine at a consistent temperature whereas air cooled engine temps fluctuate based on riding conditions, speed, altitude, and just about everything! I run 10W-30 Lucas blend MC oil in the wife's Yamaha Grizzly 660 with no complaints. Thanks for your input and helping me out!

 

[Dyusik]

T6 shears FAST, I used it twice. DELO 400 15w40 is what I use now, and so far it shears a little bit slower than T6 did (going by gear engagement feel) over time, but it starts out in high 15 vs mid 14 at 100C, so in the time T6 is due for a change, DELO fill is in the T6 range (again, by gear feel).
I will continue using CJ4 stuff unless I find cheap alternatives like VR1 sae50 & 20w50 I got on clearance. The 10w50 Yamalube did not stand out as superior in any way, especially when paying close to 50 bucks for the fill, vs just shy of 12 for DELO and 8 bucks for the VR1.


I have seen a VOA of bike oil, it has no more additives than a vanilla ILSAC/API oil, nothing looks good. As for JASO it only requires oil be acea OR api OR ilsac, plus friction characteristic tests for the wet clutch.
Good quote to sum things up.
Originally Posted By: rokky
Diesel oils with Allison C4, Clark transmission, Caterpillar powershift ratings are also suitable for motorcycle wet clutches.
Diesel oils also have higher levels of zinc and phosphorous than most automotive oils.
Diesel oils do have higher levels of detergent/ash which is a debatable subject.
Diesel oils are cheaper than motorcycle specific oils.

 

[eddy21]

I don't think liqui Moly plays well with wet clutches . The additive that is .

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: eddy21
I don't think liqui Moly plays well with wet clutches . The additive that is .


Their moly additive does not, and if I recall correctly said so on the bottle.

 

[AMC]

Plenty of Jaso-MA rated and other well proven oils contain moly.

Many of us here use Delo and Delvac in our wet clutch motorcycles and never see any clutch slippage. If it is an additive that causes or helps clutch slippage develop, I don't think it is moly doing it.

 

[Robenstein]

Originally Posted By: AMC
Plenty of Jaso-MA rated and other well proven oils contain moly.

Many of us here use Delo and Delvac in our wet clutch motorcycles and never see any clutch slippage. If it is an additive that causes or helps clutch slippage develop, I don't think it is moly doing it.



That is a different kind/formulation of moly than what Liqui Moly sells in the MoS2 addtiive. The Liqui Moly additive is basically a very fine molybdenum disulfide powder in suspension of a carrier liquid. If you put that in your bike, it will play havoc on your clutch.

 

[AMC]

Rob- Thanks for the clarification.

 

[yaris0128]

If you are using something like Rotella for a typical Japanese street bike go ahead and use the stuff till the engine falls out. If you are talking track bike then use something better.

 

[DGXR]

One of my bikes is technically a race bike but neither of them is raced or abused, I change the oil and do all other services faithfully. They don't look pretty but everything works great and they are clean on the inside

I started out 20 years ago using Valvoline 10w40 4-stroke oil at $6 a quart, then went to Maxima synblend 10w40 at $9 a quart, all with good results. I used those only because they are "motorcycle oils" and had good reputation. When I discovered HD oil being used in motorcycles, I rolled the dice and began using Rotella T6 with good results, but the shifting was notchy and the required oil changes are frequent enough that I don't benefit from the synthetic formula (or higher price) of T6. Now I am using Rotella T4 with good results, smooth shifts and holds up fine during the relatively short service periods, only $3.50 a quart. In fact since I started running the Rotella, my Honda XR has stopped burning oil on cold starts, which I assume is the valve stem seals (common for these bikes). Anyway... the clutches have never slipped under power, always grab strong and smooth on release, so I see no reason to pay 2x or 3x the price for moto-specific oils... not anymore

Only wish I had started using Rotella sooner. I understand Rotella is not JASO MA/MA2 certified, but it is a Shell oil labeled as meeting the JASO MA/MA2 specification. I don't think Shell is going to risk their reputation and newly acquired motorcycle customer base by throwing baseless claims on the label. Simply stated, Rotella works good in my bikes. The personal experience of myself and thousands of others is a testimony that it's suitable for this application.

 

[Huie83]

Anyone running diesel oil in a air cooled Harley engine?

I have a 08 Buell Ulysses ( xb12xt) which has the Harley sportster based 1203CC lighting motor in it. The oil specs are 20w-50 below 60 degrees, 50WT above 60 degrees and 60Wt above 80 degrees.

Being in MN I've just been running Mobil 1 V-twin 20w-50 which it seems to do fine on. Just curious on what others run in their bigger air cooled engines.

 

[DGXR]

Originally Posted by Huie83
Anyone running diesel oil in a air cooled Harley engine?

I have a 08 Buell Ulysses ( xb12xt) which has the Harley sportster based 1203CC lighting motor in it. The oil specs are 20w-50 below 60 degrees, 50WT above 60 degrees and 60Wt above 80 degrees.

That is an extremely temperature-specific requirement. Also it seems odd that the temperature ranges (categories?) are so close together. It sounds like someone could use three different oils in a single day if the temperature goes from 50F to 90F.

 

[1978elcamino]

I have a Honda CRF450R and CRF250X, both using t6, my sons air cooled klx110L I use t4 and its a shared sump system.