Timing Belts
- Thread starter Jim K
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'Today's cars' have nothing to do with it. It all depends on how each individual engine was designed regardless of when.
It's MORE likely on "today's" car's. Higher compression, enabled by better fuel injection and engine controls, along with small combustion chambers, all in search of higher efficiency means that most new engines are "interference" designs: A valve at full extension will be hit by a piston as it approaches top dead center.
So, yeah, broken timing belt means damaged engine in most cases.
Non-interference engine designstend to be older, lower compression, lower valve lift and less efficient. No absolutes, of course, but that's the trend.
So, yeah, broken timing belt means damaged engine in most cases.
Non-interference engine designstend to be older, lower compression, lower valve lift and less efficient. No absolutes, of course, but that's the trend.
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Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
'Today's cars' have nothing to do with it. It all depends on how each individual engine was designed regardless of when.
+1 It is really more about the vehicle versus modern technology.
'Today's cars' have nothing to do with it. It all depends on how each individual engine was designed regardless of when.
+1 It is really more about the vehicle versus modern technology.
Originally Posted By: Jimkobb
I was just curious . On today`s cars should a timing belt break would it cause damage to the engine? A car my daughter had some years back the engine was damaged when the belt broke.
There are two basic engine designs
An "interference engine" - when a belt breaks catastrophic damage will occur.
A "non interference engine" - when a belt breaks you get stranded.
Pushing the interval on the former is an expensive gamble
Pushing it on the later is to gamble inconvenience and a hefty tow.
UD
By the time I was finish astro beat me to it...
I was just curious . On today`s cars should a timing belt break would it cause damage to the engine? A car my daughter had some years back the engine was damaged when the belt broke.
There are two basic engine designs
An "interference engine" - when a belt breaks catastrophic damage will occur.
A "non interference engine" - when a belt breaks you get stranded.
Pushing the interval on the former is an expensive gamble
Pushing it on the later is to gamble inconvenience and a hefty tow.
UD
By the time I was finish astro beat me to it...
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If it's an interference engine, there will be damage when a belt cuts loose. Non-interference engines just quit running, no damage. You'll have to look up the engine you're dealing with to find out. I suspect that modern engines are interference being so power rich and compact. But you'll have to confirm what your actual engine is......
I think a better question is on today's car with a belt, do they break easily?
despitr the doom and gloom of if you don't replace it you will blow your engne the stories of someone firsthand having a timing belt break on them even with 2x the recommended mileage seem about as common as a orange can of death or pennzoil filling the engine with wax.
if you did get a car with an engine with timing belt longevity issues you can Google it and regret your poor purchase of an older car
despitr the doom and gloom of if you don't replace it you will blow your engne the stories of someone firsthand having a timing belt break on them even with 2x the recommended mileage seem about as common as a orange can of death or pennzoil filling the engine with wax.
if you did get a car with an engine with timing belt longevity issues you can Google it and regret your poor purchase of an older car
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Most timing belts have around 100,000 miles before replacement. Kits also can come with new water pump,idler pulley and tensioners at a reasonable price. I just have it all replaced at the same time and not worry about it. Engines in my cars are both interference and non. I service them the same
Seems like I just recently read that with the new glass reinforced belts, they're supposed last the life of the engine (sigh). I know Ford looks at the belt on their 1.0 three cylinder Ecoboost as a lifetime belt, and it runs in the oil! Seems engine designers are beginning to favor belts over chains - quieter, less stretch (?), cheaper, and less parasitic loss. And with engines becoming smaller, the width of the timing belts is getting pared down as well. I got this info while sifting the web about the 3 cylinder Ecoboost engine and "belt in oil" applications, Gates is a major player in this new way of doing things. Check it out, pretty interesting read.
Originally Posted By: tenderloin
Most timing belts have around 100,000 miles before replacement. Kits also can come with new water pump,idler pulley and tensioners at a reasonable price. I just have it all replaced at the same time and not worry about it. Engines in my cars are both interference and non. I service them the same
I spend 1200 on my toyota/lexus at 100K and then dont worry about it until I get to 200K where I spend another 1200....
I spend -0- on my nissans and never worry about it any mileage
I have other things Id rather spend my money on.
UD
Most timing belts have around 100,000 miles before replacement. Kits also can come with new water pump,idler pulley and tensioners at a reasonable price. I just have it all replaced at the same time and not worry about it. Engines in my cars are both interference and non. I service them the same
I spend 1200 on my toyota/lexus at 100K and then dont worry about it until I get to 200K where I spend another 1200....
I spend -0- on my nissans and never worry about it any mileage
I have other things Id rather spend my money on.
UD
Here's an example: http: http://www.ngfeurope.com/~/media/NGF%20Europe/Site%20Content/News/Automotive%20Design%20Europe%20Feature.ashx
Pretty interesting read, a cut and paste:
Timing Belt in Oil Reduces Friction and Noise
Number of engines with belt drives growing faster than those with chain technology
Timing belts in oil can be narrower than the dry-running version
System competence for the entire drive
Frankfurt, Germany, September 10, 2013. Less friction + less weight = less fuel consumption – and so fewer CO2 emissions. This simple formula is a dominant theme today in the development departments of automotive manufacturers and their suppliers. It has long ceased being all about grand savings and has instead become a matter of highly detailed work, since every saved gram of CO2 counts in the final analysis.
This is one of the reasons why the timing belt in the timing assembly has gained significantly in importance once again in recent years. Volkswagen is again fitting belts instead of chains in the Golf VII and Audi A1. And other manufacturers too are increasingly designing their new engines for high-tech drive belts made from rubber and plastic, because they know that belts have distinct advantages over chains in reducing fuel consumption and CO2 emissions from combustion engines.
Studies also confirm this: According to FEV GmbH, an independent engine designer, the belt drive lowers fuel consumption compared to the chain, and therefore reduces CO2 emissions. In a 1.6 liter gasoline engine, for example, the belt drive reduces fuel consumption by more than 1% and saves up to 1.5 grams of CO2 per kilometer. "Belt drives are lighter and run a lot more quietly too. Belts don't tend to lengthen either," says Hermann Schulte, head of Timing Belt Development at the ContiTech Power Transmission Group. "A significant advantage, because a lengthening chain alters the engine timing. As a result, consumption increases and performance drops. Emissions levels are quickly exceeded." In endurance tests, a belt lengthened by just 0.1% after 240,000 kilometers of service life – the figure was five times greater with a chain.
Many large automotive manufacturers in Europe are now making use of the benefits of timing belts in their engines and this number is growing. ContiTech supplies dry-running timing belts to manufacturers including Audi, Volkswagen, Volvo, Ford, Opel, and PSA. It's not only camshafts that are controlled by timing belts, but injection systems and oil pumps too. ContiTech developers are already considering whether to use a timing belt to drive balance shafts as well and therefore make spur gears superfluous. And their focus is on unconventional yet safe solutions, such as the timing-belt-in-oil system. "Since the start of 2013, the ContiTech Power Transmission Group has been part of the group of series production suppliers for these applications. Timing belts are already in use for oil pump and timing drives in the newer Ford, PSA, and Volkswagen engines," says Ralf Berger, head of Key Account Management and Application Engineering at the ContiTech Power Transmission Group.
What was previously unthinkable is today running along without a hitch in series production. To achieve this, ContiTech has adapted the elastomer, the fabric, and the cord to the new environment. In addition to polyamide and aramid fabric with a Duralon coating containing Teflon, an ultra-durable rubber compound made from ACN-HNBR (hydrogenated acrylonitrile butadiene rubber), as well as E-glass and K-glass, is also being used for high length stability. Because of these special components, even impurities in the oil cannot harm the belt, whereas simple soot particles in the oil can destroy chains.
The advantage of the timing belt in oil is that it has a narrower construction than the dry-running version and it is even quieter. In the case of a crankshaft pulley with 19 teeth, no noise can be detected, even with the engine operating under full load, because the oil not only reduces friction, it absorbs sound as well. This is important for the simple reason that the increasingly popular downsized engines generally run less smoothly. Here is where a belt can help minimize vibration and make driving a pleasant experience despite the use of environmentally friendly technology.
Benchmark trials also demonstrate that belts today have at least the same and often even better properties than chain drives with their hydraulic tensioners and plastic guides. This is why developers are no longer concentrating on durability – this has long been a given. In on-road tests, the belts still ran without a hitch even after 300,000 kilometers.
The question today is one of making the belts even narrower – every millimeter counts, because installation space in vehicles is becoming ever tighter. "This is where the belt has another advantage. The engine designer has more flexibility in designing the belt drive than with a chain," says developer Hermann Schulte. The aim is to reduce belts for the camshaft drive in the next generation of engines from today's 16 – 20 mm width to 14, 12 or even 10 mm. Belts for oil pump drives currently measure just 9 mm – and so are as narrow as a chain.
Yet when it comes to the issue of reducing weight, it is not enough to consider the belt alone. Tensioners, idlers, and toothed pulleys are critical too. This is why developers at the joint venture company ContiTech-INA are already working on drives that can make do with simpler, and therefore lighter, tensioning systems. Or even none at all. In this way more grams can be saved and the CO2 emissions ultimately reduced even further. Vehicle manufacturers are backing this trend with their development commissions and in so doing reveal their confidence in ContiTech's many years of experience in the field of drives.The many advantages offered by modern timing belts, including their long service life, reduced friction and reduced noise, will again expand the market share of timing belts. Experts estimate that it will include at least two thirds of European vehicles in 2015 and over 70% in 2017. The share of belts running in oil will more than double from today's 8% to over 20%. A development that will benefit the environment and motorist alike.
Timing Belt in Oil Reduces Friction and Noise
Number of engines with belt drives growing faster than those with chain technology
Timing belts in oil can be narrower than the dry-running version
System competence for the entire drive
Frankfurt, Germany, September 10, 2013. Less friction + less weight = less fuel consumption – and so fewer CO2 emissions. This simple formula is a dominant theme today in the development departments of automotive manufacturers and their suppliers. It has long ceased being all about grand savings and has instead become a matter of highly detailed work, since every saved gram of CO2 counts in the final analysis.
This is one of the reasons why the timing belt in the timing assembly has gained significantly in importance once again in recent years. Volkswagen is again fitting belts instead of chains in the Golf VII and Audi A1. And other manufacturers too are increasingly designing their new engines for high-tech drive belts made from rubber and plastic, because they know that belts have distinct advantages over chains in reducing fuel consumption and CO2 emissions from combustion engines.
Studies also confirm this: According to FEV GmbH, an independent engine designer, the belt drive lowers fuel consumption compared to the chain, and therefore reduces CO2 emissions. In a 1.6 liter gasoline engine, for example, the belt drive reduces fuel consumption by more than 1% and saves up to 1.5 grams of CO2 per kilometer. "Belt drives are lighter and run a lot more quietly too. Belts don't tend to lengthen either," says Hermann Schulte, head of Timing Belt Development at the ContiTech Power Transmission Group. "A significant advantage, because a lengthening chain alters the engine timing. As a result, consumption increases and performance drops. Emissions levels are quickly exceeded." In endurance tests, a belt lengthened by just 0.1% after 240,000 kilometers of service life – the figure was five times greater with a chain.
Many large automotive manufacturers in Europe are now making use of the benefits of timing belts in their engines and this number is growing. ContiTech supplies dry-running timing belts to manufacturers including Audi, Volkswagen, Volvo, Ford, Opel, and PSA. It's not only camshafts that are controlled by timing belts, but injection systems and oil pumps too. ContiTech developers are already considering whether to use a timing belt to drive balance shafts as well and therefore make spur gears superfluous. And their focus is on unconventional yet safe solutions, such as the timing-belt-in-oil system. "Since the start of 2013, the ContiTech Power Transmission Group has been part of the group of series production suppliers for these applications. Timing belts are already in use for oil pump and timing drives in the newer Ford, PSA, and Volkswagen engines," says Ralf Berger, head of Key Account Management and Application Engineering at the ContiTech Power Transmission Group.
What was previously unthinkable is today running along without a hitch in series production. To achieve this, ContiTech has adapted the elastomer, the fabric, and the cord to the new environment. In addition to polyamide and aramid fabric with a Duralon coating containing Teflon, an ultra-durable rubber compound made from ACN-HNBR (hydrogenated acrylonitrile butadiene rubber), as well as E-glass and K-glass, is also being used for high length stability. Because of these special components, even impurities in the oil cannot harm the belt, whereas simple soot particles in the oil can destroy chains.
The advantage of the timing belt in oil is that it has a narrower construction than the dry-running version and it is even quieter. In the case of a crankshaft pulley with 19 teeth, no noise can be detected, even with the engine operating under full load, because the oil not only reduces friction, it absorbs sound as well. This is important for the simple reason that the increasingly popular downsized engines generally run less smoothly. Here is where a belt can help minimize vibration and make driving a pleasant experience despite the use of environmentally friendly technology.
Benchmark trials also demonstrate that belts today have at least the same and often even better properties than chain drives with their hydraulic tensioners and plastic guides. This is why developers are no longer concentrating on durability – this has long been a given. In on-road tests, the belts still ran without a hitch even after 300,000 kilometers.
The question today is one of making the belts even narrower – every millimeter counts, because installation space in vehicles is becoming ever tighter. "This is where the belt has another advantage. The engine designer has more flexibility in designing the belt drive than with a chain," says developer Hermann Schulte. The aim is to reduce belts for the camshaft drive in the next generation of engines from today's 16 – 20 mm width to 14, 12 or even 10 mm. Belts for oil pump drives currently measure just 9 mm – and so are as narrow as a chain.
Yet when it comes to the issue of reducing weight, it is not enough to consider the belt alone. Tensioners, idlers, and toothed pulleys are critical too. This is why developers at the joint venture company ContiTech-INA are already working on drives that can make do with simpler, and therefore lighter, tensioning systems. Or even none at all. In this way more grams can be saved and the CO2 emissions ultimately reduced even further. Vehicle manufacturers are backing this trend with their development commissions and in so doing reveal their confidence in ContiTech's many years of experience in the field of drives.The many advantages offered by modern timing belts, including their long service life, reduced friction and reduced noise, will again expand the market share of timing belts. Experts estimate that it will include at least two thirds of European vehicles in 2015 and over 70% in 2017. The share of belts running in oil will more than double from today's 8% to over 20%. A development that will benefit the environment and motorist alike.
Originally Posted By: tenderloin
Most timing belts have around 100,000 miles before replacement. Kits also can come with new water pump,idler pulley and tensioners at a reasonable price. I just have it all replaced at the same time and not worry about it. Engines in my cars are both interference and non. I service them the same
My last one went at 97K miles. Waited in 19 degree weather for 2 hours for the tow.
Most timing belts have around 100,000 miles before replacement. Kits also can come with new water pump,idler pulley and tensioners at a reasonable price. I just have it all replaced at the same time and not worry about it. Engines in my cars are both interference and non. I service them the same
My last one went at 97K miles. Waited in 19 degree weather for 2 hours for the tow.
Originally Posted By: double vanos
The advantage of the timing belt in oil is that it has a narrower construction than the dry-running version and it is even quieter. In the case of a crankshaft pulley with 19 teeth, no noise can be detected, even with the engine operating under full load, because the oil not only reduces friction, it absorbs sound as well.
I don't get this quote. I'd think timing belt/chain noise would be a constant; well more precisely a function of rpm. And not load. If the rpm is jumping up/down I could see rattle coming into play. But otherwise, under load, other engine noises would more likely mask the otherwise constant timing belt/chain noise.
The advantage of the timing belt in oil is that it has a narrower construction than the dry-running version and it is even quieter. In the case of a crankshaft pulley with 19 teeth, no noise can be detected, even with the engine operating under full load, because the oil not only reduces friction, it absorbs sound as well.
I don't get this quote. I'd think timing belt/chain noise would be a constant; well more precisely a function of rpm. And not load. If the rpm is jumping up/down I could see rattle coming into play. But otherwise, under load, other engine noises would more likely mask the otherwise constant timing belt/chain noise.
Timing belt in oil has been here for a long time it's called leaky cam/crank seals onto timing belt lol. I have to pay my indie mechanic $1500 to change the TB and the works on a 2001 Toyota Tundra V8 2UZ-FE interference engine design and do so in the next 30,000mi. I'm glad Toyota moved away from TB to chains in their xR-FE engine family, continuing off from the 22R-E the last engine when Toyota went from chains to belts.
having had + still have belted VAG interference engines i play safe. my present low mileage 2001 TT says 60,000 or 5 years i believe + if any part of the belt system malfunctions it can cost 2G give or take. malfunctions at highway speeds of course cause more damage. when manufactures warranty belts inspections by said dealers are REQUIRED $$$ to keep that warranty in force!! for my 1.8T a complete kit with a water pump located in the system is 300 to 500, install prolly 500 to 1G dealers being most expensive, i do my own!!
That's it, I'm converting my Focus to a timing belt from a chain!
Honestly I prefer the simplicity of a chain. Just one less thing to go wrong should the cam/crank seal fail and dump oil all over the timing belt.
If it means my engine is slightly noisier/less fuel efficient, so be it. That's what ear plugs and skinny tire setups are for.
Honestly I prefer the simplicity of a chain. Just one less thing to go wrong should the cam/crank seal fail and dump oil all over the timing belt.
If it means my engine is slightly noisier/less fuel efficient, so be it. That's what ear plugs and skinny tire setups are for.
Originally Posted By: Lolvoguy
That's it, I'm converting my Focus to a timing belt from a chain!
Honestly I prefer the simplicity of a chain. Just one less thing to go wrong should the cam/crank seal fail and dump oil all over the timing belt.
If it means my engine is slightly noisier/less fuel efficient, so be it. That's what ear plugs and skinny tire setups are for.
I think by 2007, all US spec Focuses came with the Duratec engine which uses a timing chain
That's it, I'm converting my Focus to a timing belt from a chain!
Honestly I prefer the simplicity of a chain. Just one less thing to go wrong should the cam/crank seal fail and dump oil all over the timing belt.
If it means my engine is slightly noisier/less fuel efficient, so be it. That's what ear plugs and skinny tire setups are for.
I think by 2007, all US spec Focuses came with the Duratec engine which uses a timing chain
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