Blacksone & fuel dilution measurement...

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posed a Q to Blackstone, would like more opinion please..

Q: Have a Honda 1.5 Turbo Civic and concerned about fuel dilution,
my question is are you able to determine the percentage of fuel in my UO
and does a concerned customer really need a follow up after flashpoint
analysis with chromotography analysis?



A: ..and Blackstone's reply

Hi, Greg. Thanks for the email.

Our standard tests can indeed give you a percentage of fuel in your oil, if
it's between 0.5% and 10%. If there's more than 10% fuel present, we can
extrapolate from the flashpoint reading and give you a possible value, but
the ASTM-standard Cleveland Open Cup flashpoint method is technically only
accurate to 10% fuel, so anything above that is just an estimate.

If you have a high level of fuel dilution -- especially if it's above 10%,
and you want a definite measurement of the amount of fuel present -- then I
could see following up with a chromatography analysis, but that's not
something that we do here, so we'd have to refer you to another lab for
that. If you have less than 10% fuel present, this type of flashpoint test
is considered accurate, so I don't think it would be necessary to get an
additional chromatography analysis, but obviously that's your choice. We
can't stop you!
smile.gif


Hope that helps. Let me know if there's anything else we can do for you.
Thanks!

Travis Heffelfinger
Blackstone Laboratories
416 E. Pettit Ave.
Fort Wayne, IN 46806
260-744-2380
www.blackstone-labs.com
 
The problem I see is that it is simply an extrapolation and the reduction in flashpoint from the ASDM D-93 method used by the blenders on their oils doesn't seem to be well represented in the open cup method used here.

There are numerous examples in UOA's where an oil has dropped from like 440F to 365F and the report shows .5% fuel or something along those lines, which you know can't possibly be right. However that begs the questions as to what the deviation is between open and closed cup on virgin oil as well. IE, since we are using two different testing methodologies, are the numbers comparable?
 
he claims to be accurate up to 10%, do you trust that or is that optimistic corporate speak? and could my engine dilute further than 10% without the dip stick reading it?
 
I do not trust it. When I had my oil tested by Toromont CAT in my bimmer, I was shown 5% fuel. They used a closed cup method, which is different, but also corresponded to the reduction in viscosity I was seeing with the lubricant. Fuel dilution will drive down viscosity and flash point, so these are key things to look at when trying to determine the accuracy of what you are seeing as a cited fuel dilution percentage figure.
 
I don't understand why Blackstone is unable to do a complete UOA, especially with the new small turbo platforms with lspi issues.
 
Originally Posted By: dblshock
I don't understand why Blackstone is unable to do a complete UOA, especially with the new small turbo platforms with lspi issues.
One of the reasons that I switched to a different lab. When you look at the cost of a Blackstone UOA versus the others and with the features/tests being provided, the value is quite low.
 
I use Polaris. Blackstone was claiming 2 percent fuel dilution and my oil was in the 30 weight range. Switched to a different lab and it was more like 10 percent. Explains the extra two quarts of oil.
 
Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
I use Polaris. Blackstone was claiming 2 percent fuel dilution and my oil was in the 30 weight range. Switched to a different lab and it was more like 10 percent. Explains the extra two quarts of oil.


So, like mine after the OCI the level grew? mine seems to have by alot but then stabilized at that high level +20% (over the top mark) sound like massive dilution?
 
Originally Posted By: dblshock
Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
I use Polaris. Blackstone was claiming 2 percent fuel dilution and my oil was in the 30 weight range. Switched to a different lab and it was more like 10 percent. Explains the extra two quarts of oil.


So, like mine after the OCI the level grew? mine seems to have by alot but then stabilized at that high level +20% (over the top mark) sound like massive dilution?


I even called blackstone and argued with them, where did the extra 2 qts of oil come from? We don't know they said. LMAO.
 
Originally Posted By: motor_oil_madman
I use Polaris. Blackstone was claiming 2 percent fuel dilution and my oil was in the 30 weight range. Switched to a different lab and it was more like 10 percent. Explains the extra two quarts of oil.


I don't know what your sump capacity is, but "two quarts over" in a five-quart sump is approximately 30% gasoline, assuming the two extra quarts are all gas.

Edit: It says online that the sump capacity of your Dodge truck is 12 quarts, so "two quarts over" would be about 14% fuel. That's a disgusting amount of fuel in the oil. However, if it is diesel fuel then that's a totally different story all together in terms of measurement.
 
I think it depends a lot on what the flashpoint of the liquid added is. (with an open cup test)

I think 10% diesel wouldn't lower the flashpoint of the oil much....

But 10% gasoline most definitely would lower it a lot.

10% butane or propane would make the flashpoint be like, 30*F - 40*f!!


.

So..... this leads into:

Gasoline is made up of a LOT of stuff, some with a high flashpoint, some with a low flashpoint.

The "low" stuff evaporates off and the vapors flow throw the PCV when the oil warms up,
leaving behind the "heavier" stuff.
It would be kind of hard to tell an accurate % after all the lighter stuff went away, correct?

Let's say I take 5% pure, "right from the pump" gasoline and mixed it with 95% used motor oil.
With none of the "lights" evaporated off, wouldn't it have a VERY low flashpoint? (falsely indicating a LOT of gas in the mix)

I then take the same sample, and boil it at 220*F for a half hour.
I let it cool down to room temp, then do another flashpoint test.
Much higher now.

I can see how hard it would be to get a "real" fuel dilution number.
 
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: THafeez
Which lab do you use?
+1
Polaris through Amsoil. $19.95 per UOA and includes TBN or TAN depending on the oil type.
 
I'm seeing a major difference in the fuel dilution question I have for my 2.0L turbo DI engine. I did a "dual sample" and sent in full blown kits from both BlackStone (w/TBN) and Amsoil labs. Cost me ~$75 total to do so.

While I do see some differences between the two reports (minor in my opinion) concerning the wear metals, the question of fuel dilution (i.e., is it really present or not and how bad) between these reports couldn't be more different!

Summary: Blackstone reports less than 0.5% while Amsoil says it is greater than 5% (using GC).

I'll post my two reports ASAP.
 
Is it at all possible that upgrading my oil from 0/20 to 5/30 might be the cause of the fuel dilution?



 
Why would switching from 0W-20 to 5W-30 be considered an "upgrade?" Seems like just a change to me or, maybe, a downgrade.
 
Originally Posted By: dblshock
Is it at all possible that upgrading my oil from 0/20 to 5/30 might be the cause of the fuel dilution?

Not seeing how.
 
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