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#4311120 - 01/24/17 09:20 AM Amsoil AME 15W40, 14K, 04 Duramax 202K
dhellman12 Offline


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 222
Loc: Keller, TX
Make/Model: Isuzu 6.6 Duramax LLY
Vehicle: 2004 Chevy 2500HD

Code:
OIL             Amsoil AME	AME 15w40	AME 15w40	AME 15w40	AME 15w40	AME 15w40	AME 15w40
MILES IN USE    13,556		19,740		12,406		20,617		24,757		21,779		19,779		
MILES ON UNIT   201,895		188,339		181,364		168,598		147,981		145,003		123,224		
SAMPLE TAKEN    1/2/17		1/2/16		8/9/15		8/9/14		8/9/13		6/13/13		6/13/12		
MAKE UP OIL	.75		1.25		.75		2		0		2.5		2.5		

ALUMINUM	2		3		2		2		3		2		2		
CHROMIUM	0		1		0		0		1		0		1		
IRON		15		24		15		16		17		14		16		
COPPER		3		7		4		4		6		3		4		
LEAD		2		5		3		2		3		2		2		
TIN		1		0		3		0		0		0		1		
MOLYBDENUM	0		1		1		1		2		0		6		
NICKEL		0		1		0		1		1		0		1		
MANGANESE	0		0		0		0		0		0		0		
SILVER		0		0		0		0		0		0		0		
TITANIUM	0		0		0		0		0		0		0		
POTASSIUM	2		4		3		7		0		4		4		
BORON		1		7		2		7		5		2		10		
SILICON		6		8		6		7		8		9		8		
SODIUM		6		8		5		5		6		5		6		
CALCIUM		3416		4075		3744		3729		4140		3888		3604		
MAGNESIUM	12		13		12		19		33		31		197		
PHOSPHORUS	1113		1193		1137		1145		1401		1252		1262		
ZINC		1240		1535		1338		1384		1474		1500		1323		
BARIUM		0		0		0		1		0		0		0		
CADMIUM												0
VANADIUM											0
ANTIMONY											0
LITHIUM												0	
     
SUS @ 210F	74.5		78.6		79.9		72.6		73.2				74.6		
Visc @ 100C	14.12		15.17		15.5		13.63		13.8		14.6		14.14		
Flashpoint	460		430		445		450		430				430		
Fuel %		<0.5		<0.5		<0.5		<0.5		<0.5		<1%		<0.5		
Antifreeze %	0.0		0.0		0.0		0.0		0.0				0.0		
Water %		0.0		0.0		0.0		0.0		0.0		<.1%		0.0		
Insolubles %	0.2		0.3		0.3		0.3		0.3				0.3		
TBN				7.3		7.6		6.9		4.5		7.0		5.8		
Soot												<.1%
Oxidation											53
Nitration											10


Blackstone Comments:
The lead increase caught our eye last time, which is why we're so pleased to see it drop to 2 ppm here. This level is what we're used to seeing from your Duramax and it perfectly matches universal averages. The increase last time wasn't

dramatic by any means, but we'll take lower wear any time. This was a shorter run too, so that may have helped some, but iron is the metal that tracks most directly with miles on the oil rather than lead. No excess fuel or coolant showed

up in this 15W/40 oil. Keep this oil in use and just check back in 5,000 miles or so.

22K sample on 6.13 was done through Oil Analyzers Inc, everything else is through Blackstone.
_________________________
05 Kawasaki BF750 - 207hrs
04DMax 6.6L - Amsoil AME 15w40 203K
04Tahoe 5.3L - Amsoil ASL 5w30 219K
00WS6 5.7L - New to me 250K

Top
#4311218 - 01/24/17 11:09 AM Re: Amsoil AME 15W40, 14K, 04 Duramax 202K [Re: dhellman12]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 6523
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Good info. Typical boring Dmax UOA. These things are the stalwart of good wear rates. Makes me wonder where the practical life limit is ...

Th Pb was just a one-time blip; particle streak that has already calmed down.

Why not start stretching these out further? 20k miles is not enough to warrant an OCI. There is a lot of life left in the Amsoil.

Remind me again, please; what filtration?
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#4311250 - 01/24/17 11:44 AM Re: Amsoil AME 15W40, 14K, 04 Duramax 202K [Re: dnewton3]
dhellman12 Offline


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 222
Loc: Keller, TX
I've been running the Amsoil EA filters on it since I converted over to their oil. Agree with the particle streak, based on the previous history I'm not too worried about the one time jump to 5ppm last OCI. We had recently moved and so it went from having a 60 mile daily commute (all highway), to about a 5 mile daily commute (all neighborhood) so I was curious on this sample if the lower distance frequent trips would have any impact (and if that was what contributed to the spike last time). Doesn't seem to be much concern for that motor though.
_________________________
05 Kawasaki BF750 - 207hrs
04DMax 6.6L - Amsoil AME 15w40 203K
04Tahoe 5.3L - Amsoil ASL 5w30 219K
00WS6 5.7L - New to me 250K

Top
#4311825 - 01/24/17 09:42 PM Re: Amsoil AME 15W40, 14K, 04 Duramax 202K [Re: dhellman12]
motor_oil_madman Offline


Registered: 11/29/09
Posts: 3530
Loc: Houston, Texas
So what's the lifespan of a diesel engine that barely wears?
_________________________
2007.5 dodge cummins 6.7 liter. Chevron Delo400 15w40. 7000 mile or 250-300hr intervals.


Top
#4311995 - 01/25/17 07:25 AM Re: Amsoil AME 15W40, 14K, 04 Duramax 202K [Re: dhellman12]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 6523
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted By: dhellman12
We had recently moved and so it went from having a 60 mile daily commute (all highway), to about a 5 mile daily commute (all neighborhood) so I was curious on this sample if the lower distance frequent trips would have any impact (and if that was what contributed to the spike last time). Doesn't seem to be much concern for that motor though.


FACTS:
The change in your commute is a pretty big reduction. However the change will not manifest into any issue in wear; the Dmax just doesn't react much to changes such as this.


MY OPINION:
Now, ask yourself why we use UOAs? (Or at least, why we should use UOAs?) Not as toys, but as tools to tell us how things are reacting, and how we can predict future maintenance plans. That in mind, consider the following ...

I see a potential for a change in your oil selection. I'm not saying you must change; I'm only acknowledging a potential for change. I'll explain ...
The ratio of your travel reduction is huge. You went form 60 miles to 5 miles; you've cut your driving by a factor of 12! You ran 79k miles in 4.5 years; an average of 18k miles a year. Now you're likely to be around 1.5k miles a year.
One of four things must be true; these cannot be avoided:
1) you will continue to use AME, and OCI annually per the Amsoil warranty statement, and throw away perfectly good oil with 1500"ish" miles on it
2) you will continue to use AME, and and UOA ONLY when the UOA indicates a change is necessary (probably be 10 years, if it can last that long?)
3) you will change to a decent CJ-4 dino oil, of any brand that is on sale, and still OCI annually, and throw away perfectly good oil with 1500"ish" miles on it
4) you will change to a decent CJ-4 dino oil, of any brand that is on sale, and extend the OCIs out to where a UOA would tell you otherwise

Now, I admit I know nothing of your life other than what you post here. You do a great job of sharing lots of UOAs; not just engine oil, but diffs, xfer case, tranny, etc. You seem to be pretty much "into" UOAs, and I expect you understand both the benefits and limitations of such tools. But you're now in a position where spending money on a PAO syn simply will NEVER, EVER pay for itself unless your OCIs extend into the terms of a decade of years! Either that, or you'll be on a big route to wasting a lot of good oil.

I, myself, run three or four year OCIs in my Dmax; about 12k miles or so, on dino 10w-30. My UOAs show my wear rates are fantastic, but that's true of just about any Dmax UOA. These engines simply don't wear much at all, regardless of the OCI, or the region you live in, or the use you put them through, or the lube you use. Same goes for my Kubota tractor; I only O/FCI when I do the truck, about every three or four years.

Again - I'm not taunting you or trying to force you; I have no ability to alter your life. But I'm just trying to open up a dialogue that may help you (or even others) see where it is wise/foolish to spend money on lubes. There's nothing wrong with spending high $$$ on premium lubes, IF you use them to full benefit. But if not, it's waste. In fact, even dino oil can be wasted if tossed prior to it's practical end.

My recommendation may not mean a darn thing to you, but I'd suggest this:
On your next OCI, change to any decent HDEO you can find on sale, as long as it's API qualified.
Run a year and take a UOA; it will come back fine; continue to use oil.
Run another year and take a UOA; it will come back fine; continue to use oil.
Run a third year and take a UOA; it will come back fine; continue to use oil.
Run a forth year and take a UOA; it will come back fine; consider an OCI, not because the oil is "done for", but because you can now stop the UOAs. After 4 years you'll only have 6k or 7k miles for goodness sake ...
Run four year O/FCIs after that, forget the UOAs, and save big money.

I've done this enough that I no longer take UOAs; it's just not worth the expense to confirm what a bazillion of miles of Dmax UOAs already tell us. These things don't wear, regardless of what you use or how you drive them.

Let's put real numbers to this:
Presume you continue with AME and EaO filter; your O/FCI is probably $100? (That's assuming you get a preferred customer discount ... as retail costs are above this).
I spend $30 on an O/FCI (typically whatever CJ-4 is on sale at $10/gallon, and a Napa/Wix filter). I spend less than 1/3 of your cost.
If you O/FCI annually, you'll spend $400 in four years. I will O/FCI once in four years; I'll spend $30. And yet we'll get the same wear rate results. You'll spend more than 10x more money, and get zero benefit, in this example.
Even if you O/FCI with AME every four years, you'd still spend 3x more money than me. And yet we'll get the same wear rate results.
Now - you can argue about the exact cost of any lube/filter to the penny, but you will NEVER shift the magnitude of disparity enough to make it anywhere close to palatable.

Your previous operating pattern of high mileage made the AME at least come close to paying for itself; your new pattern will likely never, ever even come close.

Just my $.02 for you to chew on.


Edited by dnewton3 (01/25/17 07:29 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#4312060 - 01/25/17 09:18 AM Re: Amsoil AME 15W40, 14K, 04 Duramax 202K [Re: dnewton3]
dhellman12 Offline


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 222
Loc: Keller, TX
DNewton3,

As always great info and analysis. I should clarify one point though, this latest sample of ~13K miles was a full year of service with the truck. While it's true my daily commute has been drastically reduced, there are still quite a few other drives the truck gets to see. Only my daily work commute was reduced, significantly. I'm still driving 200+ miles each way during hunting season, and have frequent trips to/from other activities. I do expect the yearly average to continue in the 10-13K range. I also don't plan to drop the oil annually as evidenced by the most recent OCI, but will likely continue to do at least an annual oil analysis to check on the health and condition of both the oil and engine. Based on the previous feedback from Blackstone my assumption is that the OCI will likely be in the 18-24 month range, and between 18-25K miles. My plan right now is to submit the oil analysis annually, and then based on the feedback and recommendations adjust so that the next analysis performed includes an OCI. If that's in another 12 months and 10-13K miles great. I can live with doing every other year oil changes.

With regards to cost, my OCI with Amsoil runs $91.05 including tax. Assuming a conservative 20K OCI, I'm looking at $4.55/1K miles. I checked the local O'reilly and Wal-Mart and the best deal I found was $13.99/gallon for oil and a Wix filter was $15.99. With tax it totals $55.17, or $4.60/1K miles (assuming a 12K OCI). If I drop the oil filter to an AC Delco it was only $8.99, which would then drop me to $47.59 or $3.97/1K miles. In order to compete with that I would have to extend the Amsoil to at least 23K miles. Certainly some things to consider, and keep in mind. I agree with your posts, and the feedback from Blackstone in their newsletter that dino vs synthetic is more about mileage and cost savings and less about one providing better wear protection. The facts don't lie, especially with DMax motors.

I think based on this data if I can't go a minimum of 20K with the Amsoil setup, it makes more financial sense to switch to dino with a quality filter and shoot for 12K OCI. Again I'm guessing at 12K, but I haven't run that in my engine to know if that number is being too conservative. If that can be stretched beyond 12K, then it makes it even tougher to beat the $/mile.

Always appreciate the info and different perspective. That's why we come to this forum. Thanks!
_________________________
05 Kawasaki BF750 - 207hrs
04DMax 6.6L - Amsoil AME 15w40 203K
04Tahoe 5.3L - Amsoil ASL 5w30 219K
00WS6 5.7L - New to me 250K

Top
#4312212 - 01/25/17 12:11 PM Re: Amsoil AME 15W40, 14K, 04 Duramax 202K [Re: dhellman12]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 6523
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
I am going to take exception to your example costs, but please understand I'm doing so in the context of polite disagreement, not augmentative taunts.


Your Amsoil costs are "sale" prices (either benefit of preferred customer, or some other similar promotion). I say this because AME retails at more than $10/qrt, and the EaO52 is almost $20. So you are getting "sale" pricing from somewhere.
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/mo.../?code=AMEQT-EA
http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-product/fi...ers/?code=eao52
A "retail" OCI for your Dmax would be around $120; you're getting a significant deal from somewhere. Good for you; everyone likes to save money.

But, you should apply the same opportunities to dino costs. There is no reason to pay $14/gallon; plenty of lubes for less. No reason to pay $15 for a Wix filter, either.
Retail to retail, or sale to sale; pick your choice. Just be apples to apples.

For example, in your area of Keller:
CJ-4 lube: http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/traveller-premium-all-fleet-15w-40-diesel-engine-oil-25-gal
costs $10/gallon; that is a savings of $12 in the OCI contrasted to your example. There is a TSC just north of Keller.
Filter: TG9100 at Walmart is $7; every bit as good as a Wix or Delco. Half the cost you quoted for the Wix. There are at least 7 W/M stores within 10 miles of Keller.
And these are real retail costs; you can walk in today and get these. If you shop and use coupons, you can get them for less!


So a dino O/FCI in your area would be $32, not the $48-$55 you show. That's $32 retail cost for API approved CJ-4 and a darn good filter. I'm sure, if you really tried, you can find them even a bit cheaper. But the $50 (avg) you quoted is way too high. A real O/FCI in your area for the Dmax can easily be found with no coupons or rebates, at $32. That is truly just a hair shy of 1/3 the cost of your Amsoil OCI.


You'd have to go 3x as far on AME just to break even. The Traveller OCI can easily do 15k miles; you'd have to go 45k miles on AME just to break even.

Here's what folks NEED TO UNDERSTAND:
Frankly, neither you nor I know the "real" (true) limit to our lubes, because we don't drive to a lube-related condemnation point. We pick based upon miles or the calendar, not the lube. Until we know how far a real DINO lube can go, then we have no basis to contrast a syn's performance. We're only picking arbitrary limits. As soon as you and I pick arbitrary limits to the OCI, we then induce artificial figures into the equation. But we cannot fake the ROI ratio. Your real Amsoil OCI costs 3x more than a real opportunity to run a dino OCI. Apples to Apples. If I go (insert arbitrary choice here) miles, you have to go (three times that arbitrary number) in miles. I go 10k; you have to go 30k. I go 15k; you have to go 45k. That ROI ratio is REAL; it's your price of AME versus what you can really, truly get at TSC and Walmart. And I HIGHLY suspect (being in an oil rich state like TX), you can probably find CJ-4 certified lube for less ...
I find HDEO on sale, somewhere, sometime, for $10/gallon OR LESS! I just bought 10 gallons of Valvoline semi-syn 10w-30 Premium Blue HDEO for $9/gallon at Menards. No coupons; no rebates. Just walk in a get $9/gal HDEO. I used to get Rotella dino for that. The next time, it might be Castrol, or Mobil, or whatever. But if you cannot find HDEO for $10 or less, you're not trying hard at all.


But no matter; I'm not trying to argue. I'm just pointing out the fact that your new operational pattern will induce a need to calculate new parameters for your OCIs; and that you may or may not be able to justify the use of a premium product any longer. I encourage you to scratch a little deeper; peer under some more stones. If you cannot get an O/FCI for $32 or less, you're not looking very hard at all.


Like I said above; I may not be able to convince you otherwise. But some will be able to see the nature of my example. ROI can be either real or induced depending upon how you manipulate the OCI duration, but the ratios of product cost do not change.


Regardless, I appreciate the wealth of info you bring to the site. You spend a lot a money in UOAs and we all benefit from your generosity. Thank you very much for your continued contributions!


Edited by dnewton3 (01/25/17 12:22 PM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#4312437 - 01/25/17 03:59 PM Re: Amsoil AME 15W40, 14K, 04 Duramax 202K [Re: dnewton3]
dhellman12 Offline


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 222
Loc: Keller, TX
That's the great thing about numbers, they don't lie or play favorites. I don't think anything can be disputed regarding ROI in your comments above. Appreciate all the info, as always!

I haven't done a lot of looking for DINO on sale, so will defer to you on that. My quick search was at O'Reilly and Wal-Mart where $13.99/Gal seem to be the current sale for the major brands (Mobil, Delo, Rotella, Valvoline, etc).

Are you seeing results from the store brands that are on-par with the major retails? I know they are all supposed to meet the same API certifications, but assume the add-packs would play a part (similar to Top Tier gasoline)? More curiosity on my part, I have no experience and haven't looked for a lot of UOA's from the house brands.
_________________________
05 Kawasaki BF750 - 207hrs
04DMax 6.6L - Amsoil AME 15w40 203K
04Tahoe 5.3L - Amsoil ASL 5w30 219K
00WS6 5.7L - New to me 250K

Top
#4312655 - 01/25/17 07:31 PM Re: Amsoil AME 15W40, 14K, 04 Duramax 202K [Re: dhellman12]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 6523
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Regarding store brands, I've used Harvest King (the Rural King line of lubes), Traveller (TSC brand) and SuperTech (W/M brand). I've seen UOA results comparable to any major brand when used in the same operations. I personally have used the ST brand with fantastic results. You'd never know the difference looking at a UOA.

Looking these over in the PQIA database, you can tell they are fine. Same goes for Napa, AAP, AZ, etc. The add-packs are all similar (admittedly not the same). Each brand favors a slightly different package approach. But they all work just fine.

The only reason I buy big brand names is when they are on sale for less than house brands (typically with a rebate or coupon). Otherwise I run house brand stuff. I don't think I've had a brand name in my cars for several years now. I once ran ST 5w-30 in my wife's minivan gasser for 15k miles with a MC filter. The UOA showed wear rates right in line with all others for that engine series (VG30E). 15k miles in what would qualify as "severe" service. And not one bad thing from the dino ST oil in the UOA. (The UOAs of mine are posted here, from a few years back).

I've spent years now running 10w-30 dino in my diesels just to prove that they do every bit as good a job as thicker grades. I've shown it beyond any reasonable doubt. My next efforts will be to run long series of house brands, just to prove them out against the majors. I like to challenge the status quo and let facts speak above rhetoric.

Why not try a house brand dino the next time you OCI. Run it for 10k miles and take a UOA.
Don't let me convince you; convince yourself!


Edited by dnewton3 (01/25/17 07:35 PM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#4361870 - 03/24/17 12:28 AM Re: Amsoil AME 15W40, 14K, 04 Duramax 202K [Re: dhellman12]
SantaFe Offline


Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 1
Loc: New Mexico
I'm following this with interest as I have a 2003 Duramax 6.6l and am using the same oil. I started using synthetics in Alaska when I moved up there. It saved my Chev 350 engine as many people running dino oil had numerous front rod journals go. I worked at Prudhoe Bay for 6 years and wheels don't even roll at 60F below zero without synthetics. Trucks used up there get synthetic everything or they don't work in the winter. I now live in New Mexico at 7000ft and it gets cold here too (not like Prudhoe or Anchorage though). My truck starts easily with one cycle of the plugs if I don't plug in the heater at zero Degrees so I am getting the benefit of synthetic. Obviously, I use the block heater when it gets cold but I have Amsoil in engine, tranny, trf case, diffs, and grease in the hubs and that is the same thing I did in Alaska and it hasn't failed me yet.

I am going to use Blackstone for Oil Analysis so I can determine the life of my oil based on my usage. I have the Amsoil bypass system and expect to get substantially better oil life with it. Testing will tell I hope. What is your change interval on the engine and transmission oils and what is the best life you have gotten?

Top
#4363486 - 03/26/17 12:26 AM Re: Amsoil AME 15W40, 14K, 04 Duramax 202K [Re: dhellman12]
CT8 Offline


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 8383
Loc: I am here.
ROI or not the oils works well for your application.

Top
#4363690 - 03/26/17 09:48 AM Re: Amsoil AME 15W40, 14K, 04 Duramax 202K [Re: SantaFe]
dhellman12 Offline


Registered: 08/29/11
Posts: 222
Loc: Keller, TX
On the oil I've been running in the 20-22K range with the longest at 25K, while the AT interval keeps climbing and was just changed at 70K (Blackstone analysis pending). Transfer case is going 60K and climbing, and diffs are at 60K as well. I've been taking it slow as I'm still relatively new to oil analysis so I've been following Blackstone's cautious approach to mileage increases so far. I do agree though based on other results and the feedback from dnewton that I'm likely not getting full value out of the products yet. The results are strong and I'm happy with them, but will continue to extend intervals based on my data and trending values.

Best of luck with your 03! If you ever have any questions on what I've been doing, or if you'd like to see more of the samples just shoot me a PM.
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05 Kawasaki BF750 - 207hrs
04DMax 6.6L - Amsoil AME 15w40 203K
04Tahoe 5.3L - Amsoil ASL 5w30 219K
00WS6 5.7L - New to me 250K

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