I topped up a VAG EA 189 (2.0 TDI 170BHP) which VW claim it needs their VW507 oil with a litre of fully synthetic A3/B3/B4 oil 5W30. Now reading up on the different oils the VW is a newer oil which is classed under C4. Have I crippled my engine now?
??? Wrong oil top up ???
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Its fine stop worrying. In the future use whatever oil is recommended in your manual.
I think you should do a full oil change and put in the correct specified oil. If for no other reason , so that you can sleep at night knowing you did the right thing.
For top-offs, I wouldn't be at all concerned.
It's also certain that the oil you topped off with is a better oil than one meeting the spec VW recommends.
The VW 507 cert calls for a low SAPS oil that cannot maintain TBN over any reasonable OCI, so you may have inadvertently done your engine a favor.
Anyone recommending that you do an immediate oil change using the recommended oil is apparently unaware of just how painful that would be in Euros extracted from your wallet as well as what the VW 507 spec actually entails.
VW 507 is a spec required for the aftertreatment in your car's exhaust system and is not in any way one that provides for a high level of engine protection.
Just another example of how OEMs come up with technical solutions that aren't desirable to the folks who actually buy the cars.
It's also certain that the oil you topped off with is a better oil than one meeting the spec VW recommends.
The VW 507 cert calls for a low SAPS oil that cannot maintain TBN over any reasonable OCI, so you may have inadvertently done your engine a favor.
Anyone recommending that you do an immediate oil change using the recommended oil is apparently unaware of just how painful that would be in Euros extracted from your wallet as well as what the VW 507 spec actually entails.
VW 507 is a spec required for the aftertreatment in your car's exhaust system and is not in any way one that provides for a high level of engine protection.
Just another example of how OEMs come up with technical solutions that aren't desirable to the folks who actually buy the cars.
I top up out of a 5 quart jug of blended oil from what was left over from previous oil changes.
Some of my cars take 4.5 quarts, some take over 5 quarts.
Some of my cars take 4.5 quarts, some take over 5 quarts.
You will be fine.
A3/B4 is high SAPS, C4 is low SAPS. So you are now probably running a low to medium SAPS oil, which will still protect the engine fine.
The low SAPS is to protect the DPF exhaust system, but over the long term, many years. A one-off of slightly higher SAPS is nothing to worry about.
A3/B4 is high SAPS, C4 is low SAPS. So you are now probably running a low to medium SAPS oil, which will still protect the engine fine.
The low SAPS is to protect the DPF exhaust system, but over the long term, many years. A one-off of slightly higher SAPS is nothing to worry about.
No worries. Change at normal time.
A top-off is not a fill. There is a difference. Plus your "mistake" is none the less a quality lubricant, so regardless of whatever it has or doesn't have that VW wants you to use, the rest of the formulation is fine.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
For top-offs, I wouldn't be at all concerned.
Agreed.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
It's also certain that the oil you topped off with is a better oil than one meeting the spec VW recommends.
The VW 507 cert calls for a low SAPS oil that cannot maintain TBN over any reasonable OCI, so you may have inadvertently done your engine a favor.
Less agreed. VW 507 00 (always combined with 504 00) is VW's "Longlife III" specification, which is specified for up to 30,000 km/2 years ODI (in Europe, using EU fuel).
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
VW 507 is a spec required for the aftertreatment in your car's exhaust system and is not in any way one that provides for a high level of engine protection.
Definitely not agreed. Whilst VW 504 00/507 00 is a mid-SAPS oil (based on ACEA C3, not C4) it is one of the toughest OEM specs there is to pass, requiring some pretty high wear protection performance. Certainly higher than ACEA A3/B4 (in fact ACEA C3 has a higher wear performance requirement than ACEA A3/B4).
For top-offs, I wouldn't be at all concerned.
Agreed.
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
It's also certain that the oil you topped off with is a better oil than one meeting the spec VW recommends.
The VW 507 cert calls for a low SAPS oil that cannot maintain TBN over any reasonable OCI, so you may have inadvertently done your engine a favor.
Less agreed. VW 507 00 (always combined with 504 00) is VW's "Longlife III" specification, which is specified for up to 30,000 km/2 years ODI (in Europe, using EU fuel).
Originally Posted By: fdcg27
VW 507 is a spec required for the aftertreatment in your car's exhaust system and is not in any way one that provides for a high level of engine protection.
Definitely not agreed. Whilst VW 504 00/507 00 is a mid-SAPS oil (based on ACEA C3, not C4) it is one of the toughest OEM specs there is to pass, requiring some pretty high wear protection performance. Certainly higher than ACEA A3/B4 (in fact ACEA C3 has a higher wear performance requirement than ACEA A3/B4).
There are some arguments as to VW 504 and 507 are around as can see above. I am not sure the specifications myself, but I generally recommend using whatever the manufacturer recommends just in case there is a warranty issue. The reasoning why I said you are fine is any A3/B4 oil is a good strong stout oil that will give great protection. It also doesn't hurt that a small amount was mixed into a larger amount. It is like mixing a quart of banana pudding brand A into 4 quarts of banana pudding brand B. It may have a slight off taste to what you are used to, but it will taste perfectly good and cause no harm.
According to another member from your side of the pond who claims a career in blending, these oils show rapid TBN depletion and this has nothing to do with the relative sulfur content of the fuel used.
Yet another member reports poor results using a complying oil like M1 ESP in his personal vehicles.
Certainly an oil can provide low wear in its virgin form but not hold up well in service.
This VW spec exists only to avoid poisoning of the aftertreatment system.
The length of the recommended OCIs in the EU is probably more a function of the very high cost of servicing in the EU than it is any technical superiority of the available oils.
Plenty of people here have no problem with 8-10K mile OCIs using a synthetic oil in a passenger car engine, but very few would chose to tread close to 18K miles with any sort of oil.
Triple the cost of motor oil and their attitudes might just change.
After all, what's a little varnish and some minor hard deposits?
It's not as though the vehicle in which the engine's installed will last forever.
Yet another member reports poor results using a complying oil like M1 ESP in his personal vehicles.
Certainly an oil can provide low wear in its virgin form but not hold up well in service.
This VW spec exists only to avoid poisoning of the aftertreatment system.
The length of the recommended OCIs in the EU is probably more a function of the very high cost of servicing in the EU than it is any technical superiority of the available oils.
Plenty of people here have no problem with 8-10K mile OCIs using a synthetic oil in a passenger car engine, but very few would chose to tread close to 18K miles with any sort of oil.
Triple the cost of motor oil and their attitudes might just change.
After all, what's a little varnish and some minor hard deposits?
It's not as though the vehicle in which the engine's installed will last forever.
Sorry I'm late - I had a heck of a time getting to work this morning, dodging and weaving around all the VWs, Audis, SEATs and Skodas broken down in the road. Oh wait, now I remember - not a single one.
There are millions of VAG cars happily running long drains on Longlife III oils. I have done it myself, and on a BMW (using LL-04). Anecdotal stories on an oil enthusiasts' forum can not be a proxy for global reality.
The oil specifications are intended to offer confidence that the oil can do what the industry body (eg ACEA) or OEM expect it to. The tests are real engine tests, so the oil goes in virgin but gets used during the test... just like in the real world. The tests are made severe to get to the results quicker, since there's not time to wait 2 years to see if an engine wears out or not.
And the same tests are used across various specifications - in back-to-back comparison, a ACEA A3/B4 oil has a lower performance target than an ACEA C3 does. And the C3 oil has to do it with an ash/TBN constraint (this is the only part of the specification that is intended to protect DPFs: ACEA C3 has 14 laboratory tests and 9 separate engine tests covering a range of performance attributes.) VW add their own DPF blocking test, so ultimate ash level is less important that real-life DPF blocking propensity (although there are ash limits within the spec).
There are millions of VAG cars happily running long drains on Longlife III oils. I have done it myself, and on a BMW (using LL-04). Anecdotal stories on an oil enthusiasts' forum can not be a proxy for global reality.
The oil specifications are intended to offer confidence that the oil can do what the industry body (eg ACEA) or OEM expect it to. The tests are real engine tests, so the oil goes in virgin but gets used during the test... just like in the real world. The tests are made severe to get to the results quicker, since there's not time to wait 2 years to see if an engine wears out or not.
And the same tests are used across various specifications - in back-to-back comparison, a ACEA A3/B4 oil has a lower performance target than an ACEA C3 does. And the C3 oil has to do it with an ash/TBN constraint (this is the only part of the specification that is intended to protect DPFs: ACEA C3 has 14 laboratory tests and 9 separate engine tests covering a range of performance attributes.) VW add their own DPF blocking test, so ultimate ash level is less important that real-life DPF blocking propensity (although there are ash limits within the spec).
The opening of your post was really cute.
Try a thought experiment.
If a couple of bucks more for a jug of oil would allow those selling cars in this country to recommend 18K mile drains, don't you think they'd do so?
None of the Germans recommend such long drains here in the land of cheap oil even using oils that fully conform to their certs.
It ain't the fuel either, since we already have ULSD and according to another member with actual experience in oil formulation and development, the sulfur content of the fuel isn't a factor in TBN depletion anyway.
Something in your assertions doesn't add up.
Try a thought experiment.
If a couple of bucks more for a jug of oil would allow those selling cars in this country to recommend 18K mile drains, don't you think they'd do so?
None of the Germans recommend such long drains here in the land of cheap oil even using oils that fully conform to their certs.
It ain't the fuel either, since we already have ULSD and according to another member with actual experience in oil formulation and development, the sulfur content of the fuel isn't a factor in TBN depletion anyway.
Something in your assertions doesn't add up.
Originally Posted By: Rad1o
I topped up a VAG EA 189 (2.0 TDI 170BHP) which VW claim it needs their VW507 oil with a litre of fully synthetic A3/B3/B4 oil 5W30. Now reading up on the different oils the VW is a newer oil which is classed under C4. Have I crippled my engine now?
Its not even worth a thought. Your engine is fine and will be fine until the end of time. Dont worry about it.
I topped up a VAG EA 189 (2.0 TDI 170BHP) which VW claim it needs their VW507 oil with a litre of fully synthetic A3/B3/B4 oil 5W30. Now reading up on the different oils the VW is a newer oil which is classed under C4. Have I crippled my engine now?
Its not even worth a thought. Your engine is fine and will be fine until the end of time. Dont worry about it.
Originally Posted By: Rad1o
I topped up a VAG EA 189 (2.0 TDI 170BHP) which VW claim it needs their VW507 oil with a litre of fully synthetic A3/B3/B4 oil 5W30. Now reading up on the different oils the VW is a newer oil which is classed under C4. Have I crippled my engine now?
Who would sell an engine that easy to "cripple"?
I topped up a VAG EA 189 (2.0 TDI 170BHP) which VW claim it needs their VW507 oil with a litre of fully synthetic A3/B3/B4 oil 5W30. Now reading up on the different oils the VW is a newer oil which is classed under C4. Have I crippled my engine now?
Who would sell an engine that easy to "cripple"?
Your engine won't suffer with that topup but your DPF life will likely be diminished. By how long is anybody's guess. What other specs did the A3/B4 oil carry? Or did it say anything of the likes of "meets or exceeds xxx spec)? Did it claim to meet any other Euro specs? For next time just buy a coupe of 1L bottles of an oil which claims to meet the VW standards or at least some other Euro spec (e.g. MB 229.51/229.52) or C3 at least.
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