Maybe even moreso than engine oil on new transmissions. Lubed for life? Sure, the automaker has a lifetime customer!
Why changing trans fluid is so critical
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Lubed for life. The mfg. knows best.
Agree with the initial change being important, and almost always never done. OEM's dont care as long as it gets through warranty
FWIW: On my '12 Kia Optima SX (purchased new), I installed a Magnefine transmission filter (inline type) at 8.5K miles. At 34K miles, I replaced it and did my first drain/fill with OEM fluid. Based on the metal in the filter and on the pan bolt (magnetic) I'm confident that the Magnefine filter can go 50K miles in my application before changing it (transmission has NO internal filter, only a course strainer). I'm now due for another ATF drain/fill at 57K miles and will be using the new OEM fluid type (SP4-M) which is now fully synthetic and recommended for my transmission. No issues thus far and I plan on driving the wheels off. Power train warranty is 10yr/100K miles (engine short block warranty extended to 120K miles now).
The "official" factory statement is that I have "lifetime fluid" for my transmission with no need to change it but there is a "severe service" line in the user manual about changing the fluid every 60K miles. I'll treat her like "severe service" anyway.
Dealership can/will do this service for $130 as well but I like doing it myself. I also found that the factory fill was a about a quart and half low (yes I followed the service manual method based on fluid temperature to check it).
The "official" factory statement is that I have "lifetime fluid" for my transmission with no need to change it but there is a "severe service" line in the user manual about changing the fluid every 60K miles. I'll treat her like "severe service" anyway.
Dealership can/will do this service for $130 as well but I like doing it myself. I also found that the factory fill was a about a quart and half low (yes I followed the service manual method based on fluid temperature to check it).
WhizkidTN,
I have a powertech 6F24 tranny in my car and was gearing up to do a fluid change. My service manual details using a dipstick ( http://www.handsontools.com/Miller-Mopar-Tools-10323B-Transmission-Dipstick-_p_111964.html ) to measure fluid level, but I see you Hyundai/Kia guys doing the "dribble from the front inspection hole" technique. Which method did you use?
Have you found a good (inexpensive) source for the SP-4M fluid?
Any "school of hard knocks" you can share about this procedure? There are some good tutorials on the Kia/Hyundai forums.
Thank you.
I have a powertech 6F24 tranny in my car and was gearing up to do a fluid change. My service manual details using a dipstick ( http://www.handsontools.com/Miller-Mopar-Tools-10323B-Transmission-Dipstick-_p_111964.html ) to measure fluid level, but I see you Hyundai/Kia guys doing the "dribble from the front inspection hole" technique. Which method did you use?
Have you found a good (inexpensive) source for the SP-4M fluid?
Any "school of hard knocks" you can share about this procedure? There are some good tutorials on the Kia/Hyundai forums.
Thank you.
Who is the person responsible for tracking a transmission with lifetime fluid through its entire life including all the various owners? That means until the boneyard or the transmission fails or is rebuilt...whichever comes first. Where can I find this data to gauge the effectiveness of lifetime fluids? How does a lifetime fluid work if a particular owner beats the snot out of their engine and transmission with jack rabbit starts and stops, burnouts, extended high rpm runs, etc? Or is it the case that only engines are susceptible to "severe" service?
What does "lifetime" mean? First owner? Warranty period? Up to 100K-150K miles? 200K miles? 300K miles? Unlimited?
What does "lifetime" mean? First owner? Warranty period? Up to 100K-150K miles? 200K miles? 300K miles? Unlimited?
I think the bean counters breathe a sigh of relief every time a car's warranty expires
Originally Posted By: doitmyself
WhizkidTN,
I have a powertech 6F24 tranny in my car and was gearing up to do a fluid change. My service manual details using a dipstick ( http://www.handsontools.com/Miller-Mopar-Tools-10323B-Transmission-Dipstick-_p_111964.html ) to measure fluid level, but I see you Hyundai/Kia guys doing the "dribble from the front inspection hole" technique. Which method did you use?
Have you found a good (inexpensive) source for the SP-4M fluid?
Any "school of hard knocks" you can share about this procedure? There are some good tutorials on the Kia/Hyundai forums.
Thank you.
Ours does not have a transmission dipstick and the ONLY way to know if the fluid level is "right" is to put the car on level ground, remove the front inspection hole on the front of the side pan and at the proper temperature range, see if you get a "small" dribble (car has to be running in Park to do this). If not, add more fluid till it does through the fill port on top of the transmission. If over filled, allow it to dribble out until it becomes a small dribble. The SP4-M fluid was at my dealer for ~$9 quart and you need 6 quarts in hand to do this simple (and single) drain/fill procedure. When I do this again, I will do a drain/fill three times with the new fluid since a single drain/fill only gets about half the existing fluid out and replaced. I will be going from the original OEM SP-IV fluid to the newer full synthetic SP4-M OEM fluid and feel I need to this it this way to get a more complete fluid replacement. I've done the transmission cooler line method before on other cars as well but since I have to remove the pan drain bolt anyway, I'll do the "full" fluid replacement via the 3x drain/fill (with a few days of driving in-between). I'll reset my ECU via disconnecting the car battery after each drain/fill. All that's my plan anyway. I documented this up on the OptimaForums website a while back (WilliamHood).
WhizkidTN,
I have a powertech 6F24 tranny in my car and was gearing up to do a fluid change. My service manual details using a dipstick ( http://www.handsontools.com/Miller-Mopar-Tools-10323B-Transmission-Dipstick-_p_111964.html ) to measure fluid level, but I see you Hyundai/Kia guys doing the "dribble from the front inspection hole" technique. Which method did you use?
Have you found a good (inexpensive) source for the SP-4M fluid?
Any "school of hard knocks" you can share about this procedure? There are some good tutorials on the Kia/Hyundai forums.
Thank you.
Ours does not have a transmission dipstick and the ONLY way to know if the fluid level is "right" is to put the car on level ground, remove the front inspection hole on the front of the side pan and at the proper temperature range, see if you get a "small" dribble (car has to be running in Park to do this). If not, add more fluid till it does through the fill port on top of the transmission. If over filled, allow it to dribble out until it becomes a small dribble. The SP4-M fluid was at my dealer for ~$9 quart and you need 6 quarts in hand to do this simple (and single) drain/fill procedure. When I do this again, I will do a drain/fill three times with the new fluid since a single drain/fill only gets about half the existing fluid out and replaced. I will be going from the original OEM SP-IV fluid to the newer full synthetic SP4-M OEM fluid and feel I need to this it this way to get a more complete fluid replacement. I've done the transmission cooler line method before on other cars as well but since I have to remove the pan drain bolt anyway, I'll do the "full" fluid replacement via the 3x drain/fill (with a few days of driving in-between). I'll reset my ECU via disconnecting the car battery after each drain/fill. All that's my plan anyway. I documented this up on the OptimaForums website a while back (WilliamHood).
Originally Posted By: 69GTX
Who is the person responsible for tracking a transmission with lifetime fluid through its entire life including all the various owners? That means until the boneyard or the transmission fails or is rebuilt...whichever comes first. Where can I find this data to gauge the effectiveness of lifetime fluids? How does a lifetime fluid work if a particular owner beats the snot out of their engine and transmission with jack rabbit starts and stops, burnouts, extended high rpm runs, etc? Or is it the case that only engines are susceptible to "severe" service?
What does "lifetime" mean? First owner? Warranty period? Up to 100K-150K miles? 200K miles? 300K miles? Unlimited?
Most products have an expected "lifetime." For example, Whirlpool told me a fridge is 14 years. For a vehicle today, it may be 10 years or 120 miles. A rule of thumb is this: What is the longest warranty the mfg will give you? Now you have your answer what is lifetime to them. After that you are on your own, and you should be in the dealership ready to pony up for a new one.
Who is the person responsible for tracking a transmission with lifetime fluid through its entire life including all the various owners? That means until the boneyard or the transmission fails or is rebuilt...whichever comes first. Where can I find this data to gauge the effectiveness of lifetime fluids? How does a lifetime fluid work if a particular owner beats the snot out of their engine and transmission with jack rabbit starts and stops, burnouts, extended high rpm runs, etc? Or is it the case that only engines are susceptible to "severe" service?
What does "lifetime" mean? First owner? Warranty period? Up to 100K-150K miles? 200K miles? 300K miles? Unlimited?
Most products have an expected "lifetime." For example, Whirlpool told me a fridge is 14 years. For a vehicle today, it may be 10 years or 120 miles. A rule of thumb is this: What is the longest warranty the mfg will give you? Now you have your answer what is lifetime to them. After that you are on your own, and you should be in the dealership ready to pony up for a new one.
Every 30,000 miles I change my brake fluid, trans, differential, transfer case fluids where I have one! and use synthetic or dealer depending on the vehicle.
For Toyota I use the dealer antifreeze and trans fluid and use synthetic for everything else.
For Honda I use dealer antifreeze and synthetic for everything else.
For Acura I use dealer antifreeze and trans fluid and synthetic for everything else.
If the vehicles do not have magnetic drain plug for any of the drain plug I epoxy a samarian cobalt magnet to the drain plug.
For Toyota I use the dealer antifreeze and trans fluid and use synthetic for everything else.
For Honda I use dealer antifreeze and synthetic for everything else.
For Acura I use dealer antifreeze and trans fluid and synthetic for everything else.
If the vehicles do not have magnetic drain plug for any of the drain plug I epoxy a samarian cobalt magnet to the drain plug.
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Where is the data that changing out lifetime fluid extends the life of the transmission?
It may or may not help but it certainly can't hurt. Case in point - wife's old vehicle, an Escape with the CD4E - supposedly not the best transmission. Fluid changed at 30,60,90k. At 160k when she traded it, it was just starting to flare on the 2-3 shift. Would another change have helped? Don't know but I'd say we got our money's worth out of it. I guess it would have made it to 200k without blowing but she wanted a new car...
Where is the data that changing out lifetime fluid extends the life of the transmission?
It may or may not help but it certainly can't hurt. Case in point - wife's old vehicle, an Escape with the CD4E - supposedly not the best transmission. Fluid changed at 30,60,90k. At 160k when she traded it, it was just starting to flare on the 2-3 shift. Would another change have helped? Don't know but I'd say we got our money's worth out of it. I guess it would have made it to 200k without blowing but she wanted a new car...
Originally Posted By: Leo99
I believe in lifetime fluid at least on toyotas. The fluid in my older toyotas is black. They work fine.
Where is the data that changing out lifetime fluid extends the life of the transmission?
The fact that your older Toyota's are built like tanks probably helps
I believe in lifetime fluid at least on toyotas. The fluid in my older toyotas is black. They work fine.
Where is the data that changing out lifetime fluid extends the life of the transmission?
The fact that your older Toyota's are built like tanks probably helps
Originally Posted By: Leo99
I believe in lifetime fluid at least on toyotas. The fluid in my older toyotas is black. They work fine.
Where is the data that changing out lifetime fluid extends the life of the transmission?
Toyotas will run on most any oil including olive oil as long as its first pressing.
I believe in lifetime fluid at least on toyotas. The fluid in my older toyotas is black. They work fine.
Where is the data that changing out lifetime fluid extends the life of the transmission?
Toyotas will run on most any oil including olive oil as long as its first pressing.
Kestas
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Where is the data that changing out lifetime fluid extends the life of the transmission?
How dare you actually ask for data. A Youtube video on a discussion forum is all the proof you need.
Well, this time Leo is lucky. I happen to see the results of bearings tested in transmissions designed with fill for life fluid. All to often I see shortened life with bearings due to debris denting. The manufacturers are all moving toward fill for life, and it's an uphill battle. They are now developing programs where suppliers have to guarantee a certain amount of cleanliness of their parts that end up in the lube cavity. Whenever I get their attention I emphasize the importance of a fluid change to clean out the breakin debris. Unfortunately, the manufacturers are catering to to fickle and lazy public who can't be bothered with flushing out the breakin debris, which would cure many ills as it has in the past.
Mercedes had fill for life some 15 years ago. They ended up with many unhappy customers with transmissions that couldn't last. Mercedes later modified their maintenance schedule by specifying a change at 40K, then filled for life ( or more realistically, every 100K).
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Where is the data that changing out lifetime fluid extends the life of the transmission?
How dare you actually ask for data. A Youtube video on a discussion forum is all the proof you need.
Well, this time Leo is lucky. I happen to see the results of bearings tested in transmissions designed with fill for life fluid. All to often I see shortened life with bearings due to debris denting. The manufacturers are all moving toward fill for life, and it's an uphill battle. They are now developing programs where suppliers have to guarantee a certain amount of cleanliness of their parts that end up in the lube cavity. Whenever I get their attention I emphasize the importance of a fluid change to clean out the breakin debris. Unfortunately, the manufacturers are catering to to fickle and lazy public who can't be bothered with flushing out the breakin debris, which would cure many ills as it has in the past.
Mercedes had fill for life some 15 years ago. They ended up with many unhappy customers with transmissions that couldn't last. Mercedes later modified their maintenance schedule by specifying a change at 40K, then filled for life ( or more realistically, every 100K).
It's hard to believe fresh, new ATF can be anything but beneficial. Particulate matter obviously does build-up and the filters are not more than large debris catchers in most. It's also obvious that manufacturers aren't in the business to make sure the unit lasts for ever. How often should you change it and will it make the AT last longer than never changing it? No guaranteed way to quantify that.
Like Kestas said, I've typically swapped out the OEM ATF around the 40K mark. Hopefully the next owner(s) appreciated it.
Like Kestas said, I've typically swapped out the OEM ATF around the 40K mark. Hopefully the next owner(s) appreciated it.
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Kestas
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Where is the data that changing out lifetime fluid extends the life of the transmission?
How dare you actually ask for data. A Youtube video on a discussion forum is all the proof you need.
Well, this time Leo is lucky. I happen to see the results of bearings tested in transmissions designed with fill for life fluid. All to often I see shortened life with bearings due to debris denting. The manufacturers are all moving toward fill for life, and it's an uphill battle. They are now developing programs where suppliers have to guarantee a certain amount of cleanliness of their parts that end up in the lube cavity. Whenever I get their attention I emphasize the importance of a fluid change to clean out the breakin debris. Unfortunately, the manufacturers are catering to to fickle and lazy public who can't be bothered with flushing out the breakin debris, which would cure many ills as it has in the past.
Mercedes had fill for life some 15 years ago. They ended up with many unhappy customers with transmissions that couldn't last. Mercedes later modified their maintenance schedule by specifying a change at 40K, then filled for life ( or more realistically, every 100K).
Toyota hasn't changed their recommendations. Guess they're not seeing the failures that Mercedes saw. Different fluid and different transmissions. Straw-man argument. Where/how do you see bearings with debris denting? Does this shorten the life of the AT? Where are all these broken transmissions if the fluid is only good for the extent of the warranty period? Talked to some folks that drive late model Hondas and they're up over 150k miles and they've never touched their ATF either.
Originally Posted By: Pop_Rivit
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Where is the data that changing out lifetime fluid extends the life of the transmission?
How dare you actually ask for data. A Youtube video on a discussion forum is all the proof you need.
Well, this time Leo is lucky. I happen to see the results of bearings tested in transmissions designed with fill for life fluid. All to often I see shortened life with bearings due to debris denting. The manufacturers are all moving toward fill for life, and it's an uphill battle. They are now developing programs where suppliers have to guarantee a certain amount of cleanliness of their parts that end up in the lube cavity. Whenever I get their attention I emphasize the importance of a fluid change to clean out the breakin debris. Unfortunately, the manufacturers are catering to to fickle and lazy public who can't be bothered with flushing out the breakin debris, which would cure many ills as it has in the past.
Mercedes had fill for life some 15 years ago. They ended up with many unhappy customers with transmissions that couldn't last. Mercedes later modified their maintenance schedule by specifying a change at 40K, then filled for life ( or more realistically, every 100K).
Toyota hasn't changed their recommendations. Guess they're not seeing the failures that Mercedes saw. Different fluid and different transmissions. Straw-man argument. Where/how do you see bearings with debris denting? Does this shorten the life of the AT? Where are all these broken transmissions if the fluid is only good for the extent of the warranty period? Talked to some folks that drive late model Hondas and they're up over 150k miles and they've never touched their ATF either.
Kestas
Staff member
Originally Posted By: Leo99
Where/how do you see bearings with debris denting?
I don't understand the question. These are transmission bearings bathed in transmission fluid.
Where/how do you see bearings with debris denting?
I don't understand the question. These are transmission bearings bathed in transmission fluid.
Kestas
Staff member
Okay, I get it now. In a veiled way you're telling us that Toyotas and Hondas are great, other cars aren't, and that Japanese cars are somehow immune to problems from worn transmission fluid.
But to suggest transmission fluid doesn't degrade and that there is no benefit from changing transmission fluid is ignorant and irresponsible.
But to suggest transmission fluid doesn't degrade and that there is no benefit from changing transmission fluid is ignorant and irresponsible.
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