CK-4 in older diesel tractors?

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Hi everyone,

The new CK-4 oils are just getting ready to be released, so, I know there has not been a lot of experience with them yet, besides what the oil companies did in field testing and trials. Doing some reading on the new oils and CK-4 formula, it seems to be driven mainly by the new engine technology and emission equipment. It concerns me that the additives are being reduced to protect the emission systems.

We have a small farm, and all our tractors are older, with none of the emission devices of new diesel engines. We have been using Mobil Delvac 1300 in our old diesel tractors, combine, etc.. With the new oils switching over to CK-4, I wonder how they will work in our older engines.

My question is, should I use an oil made for tractors and the conditions and environment they operate in, such as John Deere 50 Plus II?

I'm looking for engine protection, we don't have the money to buy newer equipment, so, we need our tractors to last as long as possible.
 
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I know Ford has not approved the new oils in their recently built Ford diesels - specifically the 2015-16 Ford Transit 3.2L diesel.
If it was my farm equipment, I would avoid the CK-4 oils and go with the dedicated spec oil you mentioned.
 
CK-4 oil is fully backwards compatible with equipment that was spec'd for CJ-4. The caveat is that engines that required additional specs, such a Ford, may not be met by CK-4. Alos, dual rated oils, CK-4/SN, will have less protection as there is no longer an exemption to allow for higher levels of additives. You should be fine using a pure CK-4 rated oil but if there is something developed for your application that may be your best bet.
 
You'll be hard pressed to find something comparable to Plus 50 II at the same price point that will return the same wear numbers.
 
Originally Posted By: FordCapriDriver
I would just use CI-4 or CJ-4 oils.

If one wishes to exhibit caution, this may not work. Well, the CI-4 idea might work. But, we have already seen examples where CK-4 stuff is in CJ-4 bottles.

If I thought CK-4 were insufficient, and I don't, the advice already given here is good. Find an older, respected CI-4. Or, find a dedicated CK-4, rather than CK-4/SN. And, CK-4 is designed to be fully backwards compatible with CJ-4. Lord knows they spent enough time on CK-4 that one would think they got it right.

I would say if it's old enough stuff, use an A3/B4 which also tends to be CF, but I know how much older tractors can hold, and this is likely to be a very expensive proposition, and this is before considering leaks or consumption.
wink.gif
 
Originally Posted By: njohnson
and all our tractors are older, with none of the emission devices of new diesel engines.

Specifically, what makes/models?
 
http://www.api.org/products-and-services...el-c-categories

API says CK-4 is as good or better than CJ oils

API Service Category CK-4 describes oils for use in high-speed four-stroke cycle diesel engines designed to meet 2017 model year on-highway and Tier 4 non-road exhaust emission standards as well as for previous model year diesel engines. These oils are formulated for use in all applications with diesel fuels ranging in sulfur content up to 500 ppm (0.05% by weight). However, the use of these oils with greater than 15 ppm (0.0015% by weight) sulfur fuel may impact exhaust aftertreatment system durability and/or oil drain interval. These oils are especially effective at sustaining emission control system durability where particulate filters and other advanced aftertreatment systems are used. API CK-4 oils are designed to provide enhanced protection against oil oxidation, viscosity loss due to shear, and oil aeration as well as protection against catalyst poisoning, particulate filter blocking, engine wear, piston deposits, degradation of low- and high-temperature properties, and soot-related viscosity increase. API CK-4 oils exceed the performance criteria of API CJ-4, CI-4 with CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, and CH-4 and can effectively lubricate engines calling for those API Service Categories. When using CK-4 oil with higher than 15 ppm sulfur fuel, consult the engine manufacturer for service interval recommendations.
 
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Originally Posted By: 2004tdigls
API CK-4 oils exceed the performance criteria of API CJ-4, CI-4 with CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, and CH-4 and can effectively lubricate engines calling for those API Service Categories. When using CK-4 oil with higher than 15 ppm sulfur fuel, consult the engine manufacturer for service interval recommendations.


And this is Ford's Position.

Ford Motor Company CK-4/FA-4 Ford Position Statement
Starting on December 1, 2016 the American Petroleum Institute (API) will begin licensing
two new diesel motor categories CK-4 and FA-4. API CK-4 is being released to replace
CJ-4. FA-4 is a low viscosity diesel oil released for diesel engines designed for a lower
viscosity oil.
API FA-4
Due to its low viscosity FA-4 should not be used in any Ford diesel vehicles at this time.
API CK-4
Ford will not be recommending the use of CK-4 motor oils in any Ford diesel engines,
new or old. Testing Ford has done on some CK-4 formulations have shown inadequate
wear protection compared to CJ-4 formulations developed and licensed before 2016.
Like many other diesel engine manufacturers, with their own internal OEM specification,
Ford will now be recommending oils that meet an OEM specification, Ford Material
Engineering Specification WSS-M2C171-F1. The customer should use an oil showing
that it meets this specification.
An oil showing CJ-4 in the API donut without showing CK-4 would be acceptable for
service even if not showing WSS-M2C171-F1. This oil would most likely be an older CJ-
4 formulation, developed and licensed prior to 2016. These oils could be around for
about a year after CK-4 licensing begins, December 1, 2016. Field experience and Ford
testing has shown that these older CJ-4 formulations provide acceptable 6.7L engine
protection.
To insure you protect your Ford diesel engine use an oil meeting Ford specification
WSS-M2C171-F1 like Motorcraft Super Duty Motor oil.
 
Interestingly enough...I spoke with someone at Mobil and they said their CK4 15w-40 had Ford's spec...just not the 5w40. Not sure if that is accurate...just what I was told. Glad I stocked up on CJ4 Delvac 5w40. Not sure why Ford's testing is showing problems with CK4. Guess in time we will all find out.
 
Originally Posted By: njohnson

My question is, should I use an oil made for tractors and the conditions and environment they operate in, such as John Deere 50 Plus II?
I'm looking for engine protection, we don't have the money to buy newer equipment, so, we need our tractors to last as long as possible.


Just my humble opinion, of course - - Schaeffer's 15W40 diesel oil.
We ran this stuff in a Deere/Case/IH fleet (Huge potato farm) through the 90's and the UOA all said to keep it in for 250+ hours.
 
Originally Posted By: Linctex
Originally Posted By: njohnson

My question is, should I use an oil made for tractors and the conditions and environment they operate in, such as John Deere 50 Plus II?
I'm looking for engine protection, we don't have the money to buy newer equipment, so, we need our tractors to last as long as possible.


Just my humble opinion, of course - - Schaeffer's 15W40 diesel oil.
We ran this stuff in a Deere/Case/IH fleet (Huge potato farm) through the 90's and the UOA all sai
d to keep it in for 250+ hours.


Now with USLD Deere extended the original OCI from 250 hrs. to 500 hrs. using their fluids and filters. From my own UOA's on my Deere powerplants I could easily go 750 hrs.
 
CJ-4 oils are not going away soon. Even Schaeffer is still offering their 15w40, 5w40, and 10w30 in CJ-4 even though they have 15w40 and 10w30 CK-4 already out. As long as folks want a CJ-4 and buy it, the oil companies will provide it.
 
TiredTrucker, off topic and I apologize, where is the best place to buy Schaeffers 5w40. Been wanting to try it...thanks for sharing your knowledge on Schaeffers.
 
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As such, there is no reason not to use CK-4 oils because there is nothing about the CK-4 spec. that truly rules out the overall level of wear protection previous formulations offered. The thing is that some manufactures have decided to move to the "politically correct" ACEA E6 level of 800 ppm phosphorus in their CK-4 oils. Of course they are going to have alternative ingredients, i.e. organic or metallo-organic secondary antiwear additives, to make up for that reduction in the P-based ZDDP. The more advanced engines oils have used such or similar types of secondary anti wear additives for decades and with CK-4, some manufacturers are changing the ratio between the more "traditional" ZDDP and these secondary types. Unless you are running modified/higher-lift cams and/or stronger valve springs in your tractor, you will be fine with 800 ppm P. But why settle for that if there is a CK-4 oil with 1000 - 1200 ppm P? I would try to avoid ACEA E6 spec. oils!

I am already seeing a certain board member posting his (by now usual) Chevron marketing diagram showing how well low phosphorus oils work in the Cummins ISM rocker arm weight loss test. This soot related wear test tells so little about an oils overall anti wear behavior.

All that being said, sooner or later JD Plus 50 could be reformulated to CK-4, either with 800 or with up to 1200 ppm P, who knows!
 
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