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#4300890 - 01/12/17 09:03 PM Used and abused, your input is appreciated
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
Below I'm going to post samples from two separate semi trucks. The overall goal is extended oil changes, learning about condition of the older motor, and developing a baseline before installing amsoil bypass, and finding out how and what oil works for our application.

Both trucks run the same short 20mi route , we run the trucks very hard in extremely dusty conditions (paper ash).
The first truck has mystik 15-50 with 10k miles on the oil,and 1,035,000 on the detroit 14l non egr engine and 100k on new rod and main bearings,and oil pump.

The,2nd truck has 208k on the engine (factory reman glider) detroit 12.7l and has 37k miles on rotella t6 syn at time of sample.


Mystic 15-50 10k
Alum 3
Chrom 1
Iron 13
Copper 1
Lead 1
Tin 2
Moly 41
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 2
Boron 5
Silicon 3
Sodium 4
Calcium 1048
Magnesium,748
Phosphorus 1052
Zinc 1253
Barium 0
Sus visc 86.3 mystik viscid lube
Flashpoint 445
Fuel <.5
Antifreeze 0
Water 0
Insoluble .3%
Tbn. 6.1




25k mystik /38 k rotella
Alum. 2 4
Chromium.3 3
Iron. 52 75
Copper. 2 3
Lead. 11 15
Tin. 3 2
Moly. 33 48
Nickel. 1
Manganese. 1
Silver. 0
Titanium. 0
Potassium. 24 7
Boron. 11
Silicon. 6 4
Sodium. 8 8
Calcium. 785
Magnesium. 815
Phos. 725
Zinc. 967
Barium. 0
Sus visc lucas96 84.9
Flashpoint. 400
Fuel. 1.0
Antifreeze. 0
Water. 0
Insolubles. .4
Tbn. 2.5



Those samples are from 2 different labs in 2 different oils on consecutive oc's. Blackstones notes said tbn was fine but recommended changing oil bc of the lead. If you notice the 2nd sample went 30% more miles with 30% more iron and lead. On the 37k mile t6 I changed the filters at 19k,31k and 37k sample. Topped off with 1.5 -2 gallons each filter swap. I have not changed it yet , what do yall think, I'm trying to learn what I can safely extend my oci to.

One final question, amsoil schaeffer or stick with the t6

Thanks ,yall are a wealth of info!!!!!!!
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

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#4300916 - 01/12/17 09:35 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
901Memphis Offline


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 11945
Loc: Northern Kentucky
I don't know if you can make any big decisions off of two different uoas from two different labs because they may have different testing equipment
_________________________
2002 Buick Century 125k - Built 4T65e(Maxlife) - Edge 0w40 + Fram XG3980
1998 Nissan Altima 335k - 5MT - M1 HM 5w30/Fram Ultra XG7317+MOS+ATP 205

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#4300918 - 01/12/17 09:39 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
The first test was at a speedco, so I'm sure that test sucked, but interesting anyways
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

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#4300942 - 01/12/17 10:09 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
Chris142 Offline


Registered: 06/05/03
Posts: 14848
Loc: apple valley, ca
Delo has a huge following here. Id try it.
_________________________
02 Wrangler super-s 10w30
87 F250 proline 15w40
04 Tahoe super-s 5w30
Z400 Lucas 10w30
KLR250 Maxima 10w40
Can am maveric edge 5w40

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#4300980 - 01/12/17 11:29 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
Ohle_Manezzini Offline


Registered: 07/05/16
Posts: 666
Loc: Pindorama
The hard data are from different: oils, engines, total mileages and ocis. That's dicey decision, IMO.

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#4301216 - 01/13/17 09:46 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
I just called the company that builds our reman engines, they told me I need to pull the oil pan off and check the bearings, he told me I would certainly be down in the copper. He doesn't read oil samples he doesn't have any data to go on, and that no matter what oil I run I need to back it down to 15,000 miles, and that no matter what engine or additional filtration or oil is available Detroit only recommends 15,000 change intervals, remind me not to call that guy again.

In other news when I do change out the oil on both trucks they are also getting Donaldson blue long life synthetic oil filters


Edited by NStuart (01/13/17 09:51 AM)
Edit Reason: 2 typo
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

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#4301273 - 01/13/17 10:57 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
One more thing to add Detroit oil condemnation number 150ppm fe and 30ppm p b per bitog, how do condemnation numbers play into longevity?


Edited by NStuart (01/13/17 10:58 AM)
Edit Reason: Typo
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

Top
#4301356 - 01/13/17 12:30 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
CT8 Offline


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 8311
Loc: Moving,not there yet.
Originally Posted By: NStuart
I just called the company that builds our reman engines, they told me I need to pull the oil pan off and check the bearings, he told me I would certainly be down in the copper. He doesn't read oil samples he doesn't have any data to go on, and that no matter what oil I run I need to back it down to 15,000 miles, and that no matter what engine or additional filtration or oil is available Detroit only recommends 15,000 change intervals, remind me not to call that guy again.

In other news when I do change out the oil on both trucks they are also getting Donaldson blue long life synthetic oil filters
Why? Why Amsoil? Why 5w oil?Running "long life" oil in a short life useage.

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#4301518 - 01/13/17 04:25 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
I'm not going for short intervals
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

Top
#4301777 - 01/13/17 10:10 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 6443
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
The first sample looks fine; good low wear for 10k miles. I'd continue to run and sample at set intervals.

The second sample isn't "bad", but the Fe is approaching a condemnation point, and the Pb is higher than a pleasing point. I'd suggest an OCI, but also see if you can ascertain the cause of the elevated metals. With two different lubes, you've seen some elevated levels. Time to look for a root cause. I'm not trying to alarm you; just caution you. Don't panic, just investigate.
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#4301921 - 01/14/17 07:51 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 7009
Loc: Upper Midwest
Just to be clear, the "condemnation limit" would be expressed in PPM per hour or mile, correct? And it applies to the engine, not the oil? Virtually no amount of metal in the oil that shows up in an ICP analysis would be detrimental to the engine, correct?
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 213K
1996 Honda Accord, 224K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 365K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 260K

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#4302071 - 01/14/17 11:08 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: kschachn]
dustyroads Offline


Registered: 05/13/13
Posts: 871
Loc: upstate NY
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Just to be clear, the "condemnation limit" would be expressed in PPM per hour or mile, correct? And it applies to the engine, not the oil? Virtually no amount of metal in the oil that shows up in an ICP analysis would be detrimental to the engine, correct?


I believe that Detroit words it as "warning levels" or maybe warning limits? The warning levels given in parts per million are for a standard oci, which in the case of a Series 60 is 15K miles. This is my understanding, not necessarily what Detroit means.

I think iron is listed as 150 or 200 ppm as a warning. While copper,lead and aluminum are 30ppm for warnings (again speaking of the series 60). My thought is that if you run a standard oci and see levels exceeding any of those, then you probably have something going wrong in the engine. Otherwise, continue to sample and monitor.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. In 18 years of truck ownership, I've been fortunate enough to have trouble free engines, and have no experience in diagnosing engine problems. Nor have I ever run super extended ocI's while working with an OEM or oil company for guidance.

Edit-I've had problems with injectors/injector cups and thus fuel dilution. Just never a problem with the engine internals.


Edited by dustyroads (01/14/17 11:13 AM)
_________________________
2013 Ford F150 5.0
Motorcraft 5W20 Fram PH10575





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#4302076 - 01/14/17 11:11 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: dustyroads]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 7009
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: dustyroads
I think iron is listed as 150 or 200 ppm as a warning. While copper,lead and aluminum are 30ppm for warnings (again speaking of the series 60). My thought is that if you run a standard oci and see levels exceeding any of those, then you probably have something going wrong in the engine. Otherwise, continue to sample and monitor.


That's what I would guess, the high readings mean a defect or issue with the engine. I've seen people here comment that the high readings mean the oil is condemned, which I don't believe is correct.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 213K
1996 Honda Accord, 224K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 365K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 260K

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#4302106 - 01/14/17 11:46 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
dustyroads Offline


Registered: 05/13/13
Posts: 871
Loc: upstate NY
NStuart, could you list the viscosity at 100C (KV100) to complete the info.

I've never run a truck locally, so I can't offer you much. I would only advise you to pick a lab and stick with it. You should use one that provides soot %, as that is a concern and another condemnation point. There are plenty of good labs, but a good lab with very reasonable cost is ALS Tribology. You can get NAPA labeled kits from any NAPA dealer, and they go to ALS in Atlanta. Last I knew, their kits were about $14.00 or so.

I would try to pick an oil based on accessibility and overall cost. Overall cost being a combination of purchase price and the longevity you think can be achieved with it. Don't overlook the basic 15W40 oils, especially when using a good bypass filter. They are far better and longer lasting (TBN) than given credit for. I used to get Castrol Hypuron synblend (now called Vecton) at Fleetpride (a national truck parts distributor) for a very reasonable price. That oil had amazing TBN retention. The new CK-4 oils in general, are made to maintain good oil properties for longer intervals than previous generations.
_________________________
2013 Ford F150 5.0
Motorcraft 5W20 Fram PH10575





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#4302115 - 01/14/17 11:54 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: kschachn]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 6443
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Just to be clear, the "condemnation limit" would be expressed in PPM per hour or mile, correct? And it applies to the engine, not the oil? Virtually no amount of metal in the oil that shows up in an ICP analysis would be detrimental to the engine, correct?


The condemnation limit is any characteristic measured that has an established magnitude limit. In this case I was referring to the iron count.

I did, however, make a mistake; I thought that the DD FE limit was 100ppm.
Using this guide:
http://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/Publications/Documents/UsedOil%5C2008020.pdf (page 16)
I see that it was Cummins that has a 100ppm limit, whereas DD has a 150ppm limit for Fe.



Edited by dnewton3 (01/14/17 11:55 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
#4302119 - 01/14/17 12:00 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: dnewton3]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 7009
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
The condemnation limit is any characteristic measured that has an established magnitude limit. In this case I was referring to the iron count.

I did, however, make a mistake; I thought that the DD FE limit was 100ppm.
Using this guide:
http://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/Publications/Documents/UsedOil%5C2008020.pdf (page 16)
I see that it was Cummins that has a 100ppm limit, whereas DD has a 150ppm limit for Fe.


Right I get that. But it's for the engine, not the oil.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 213K
1996 Honda Accord, 224K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 365K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 260K

Top
#4302405 - 01/14/17 05:04 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: dustyroads]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
100c was 16.73
Originally Posted By: dustyroads
NStuart, could you list the viscosity at 100C (KV100) to complete the info.

I've never run a truck locally, so I can't offer you much. I would only advise you to pick a lab and stick with it. You should use one that provides soot %, as that is a concern and another condemnation point. There are plenty of good labs, but a good lab with very reasonable cost is ALS Tribology. You can get NAPA labeled kits from any NAPA dealer, and they go to ALS in Atlanta. Last I knew, their kits were about $14.00 or so.

I would try to pick an oil based on accessibility and overall cost. Overall cost being a combination of purchase price and the longevity you think can be achieved with it. Don't overlook the basic 15W40 oils, especially when using a good bypass filter. They are far better and longer lasting (TBN) than given credit for. I used to get Castrol Hypuron synblend (now called Vecton) at Fleetpride (a national truck parts distributor) for a very reasonable price. That oil had amazing TBN retention. The new CK-4 oils in general, are made to maintain good oil properties for longer intervals than previous generations.

_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

Top
#4302426 - 01/14/17 05:16 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
I just spun on new filters when I sent the samples out and added 1.75 gallons to top off. Am I correct in saying that the added (or removed) oil will slightly lower the wear metals? I'm going to run it another 0-5k miles and change it while sending another sample. 5K is 5 weeks, this will allow me to put a bypass kit together and get good oil ready to go. I guess you could say this truck in the second sample is part of a family partnership and I was given the go ahead of upgraded filters, bypass, and "botique oil"

And yes 150 ppm fe and 30 pm pb is Detroit's condemnation numbers
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

Top
#4304009 - 01/16/17 10:34 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
Any thoughts on added oil reducing wear metal numbers?
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

Top
#4304013 - 01/16/17 10:36 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 7009
Loc: Upper Midwest
Yes, it dilutes the concentration. How much depends on the quantity (percentage) of make-up oil that is added, and when it was added during the interval.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 213K
1996 Honda Accord, 224K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 365K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 260K

Top
#4304153 - 01/16/17 12:51 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: kschachn]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Yes, it dilutes the concentration. How much depends on the quantity (percentage) of make-up oil that is added, and when it was added during the interval.
thank you .the amount of makeup oil was between 15 and 20% sump capacity.
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

Top
#4316164 - 01/29/17 07:05 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
Just a little update I finally put together and installed amsoil bmk30 kits on both trucks, I bought my own lines and fittings, all steel parker #8 jic fittings and 300* 4300 psi tough guard hose. Fumoto drain valves and 2 dbl3998 donaldson synthetic long life filters and went with schaeffer 9000 5w-40 synthetic.
this was the first weekend of had free in a while so I went ahead and changed the oil in both trucks. I took samples to send to blackstone, the million mile truck with mystik oil was at 16k on the oil sample. The 200k mile truck had 42k on rotella t6 at the time of the sample. I am mailing them out tomorrow .
I am not going to send samples out again until the 20k miles on the Schaeffers unless I feel there is an injector issue or other reason for concern.

The truck with 1m miles The oil oil is usually pretty black immediately. When I finished the install the driver went on a 400 mile run , I checked the oil when he got back and it was still clear. I wonder With Schaeffers detergent on a million mile engine how long the oil Will stay clear . if the 20k samples come back good I will change the ff's at 30k and sample again

One interesting note the bypass added 1.25 gallons of oil, my laser temp gun showed a 20* difference between the oil in And oil out of the filter. I will Check oil pan temps tomorrow when I get the 200k mile truck up to operating temp in 70* weather, before install and oil change I was seeing 190 at the oil return and 202* at the filters.
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

Top
#4323144 - 02/07/17 08:27 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
Just another quick update on still waiting on samples to come back , should get them in the next three days. The truck with 200,000 miles on it is running 24 hours a day since last Monday. Prior to schaeffer oil change the fuel mileage on 3000 gallons was 5.7 mpg. Since the Schaeffer Oil Change and the bypass install the truck has used 450 gallons of fuel and the current fuel mileage is 6.22 MPG . The air filter and fuel filter we're not changed the truck is running the exact same route pulling the exact same load. The truck is running 24 hours a day because the million-mile truck hit a deer last week so the whole front of the truck has to be replaced. The one good thing about it running 24 hours a day is I will sample more bc of the quicker mileage put on the truck. Just a quick side note there really is no idle time with what we do
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

Top
#4323787 - 02/07/17 09:40 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: kschachn]
Rob_Roy Offline


Registered: 10/26/08
Posts: 922
Loc: Northern, NY
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
The condemnation limit is any characteristic measured that has an established magnitude limit. In this case I was referring to the iron count.

I did, however, make a mistake; I thought that the DD FE limit was 100ppm.
Using this guide:
http://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/Publications/Documents/UsedOil%5C2008020.pdf (page 16)
I see that it was Cummins that has a 100ppm limit, whereas DD has a 150ppm limit for Fe.


Right I get that. But it's for the engine, not the oil.


Those are the levels at which the oil is not considered serviceable any longer. If you want to maximize you drain intervals, you run the lube until the levels of wear metals (or soot, fuel, etc) have come close to or reached the limit suggested by the manufacture.

Since you have decided to try Schaeffer products, I highly recommend you try their UOA service. They will guide you on extending the drain intervals.
_________________________
2015 Subaru Legacy 3.6
2014 Subaru Outback 2.5
1999 Ford F350, V10 workhorse

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#4326484 - 02/11/17 09:11 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga


Edited by NStuart (02/11/17 09:16 AM)
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

Top
#4326492 - 02/11/17 09:27 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: Rob_Roy]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 7009
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: Rob_Roy
Those are the levels at which the oil is not considered serviceable any longer. If you want to maximize you drain intervals, you run the lube until the levels of wear metals (or soot, fuel, etc) have come close to or reached the limit suggested by the manufacture.


Then in dnewton3's example they are using the iron level of 100ppm as a proxy for the condition of the oil, as iron would not be a contaminate.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 213K
1996 Honda Accord, 224K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 365K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 260K

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#4326494 - 02/11/17 09:30 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
That is the last sample from the 1m mile truck it was taken as I was install ing the bypass, 16k on mystik (ignore the 6k sample that is for my a tax write off lol)


Stand by for the 200k mile sample
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

Top
#4326498 - 02/11/17 09:38 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
200K mile 40k on t6 3 filter swaps 19k,31k,37k changed at 40k and bypass installed http://s347.photobucket.com/user/Ramncum...?sort=3&o=0
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

Top
#4326508 - 02/11/17 09:49 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 63
Loc: Sav ga
200K mile 40k on t6 3 filter swaps 19k,31k,37k changed at 40k and bypass installed http://s347.photobucket.com/user/Ramncum...?sort=3&o=0
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1,035,000 mi and counting
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny
85 cj7 4.2 performance build
08 cbr600rr graffiti

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