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#4300890 - 01/12/17 09:03 PM Used and abused, your input is appreciated
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 227
Loc: Sav ga
Below I'm going to post samples from two separate semi trucks. The overall goal is extended oil changes, learning about condition of the older motor, and developing a baseline before installing amsoil bypass, and finding out how and what oil works for our application.

Both trucks run the same short 20mi route , we run the trucks very hard in extremely dusty conditions (paper ash).
The first truck has mystik 15-50 with 10k miles on the oil,and 1,035,000 on the detroit 14l non egr engine and 100k on new rod and main bearings,and oil pump.

The,2nd truck has 208k on the engine (factory reman glider) detroit 12.7l and has 37k miles on rotella t6 syn at time of sample.


Mystic 15-50 10k
Alum 3
Chrom 1
Iron 13
Copper 1
Lead 1
Tin 2
Moly 41
Nickel 0
Manganese 0
Silver 0
Titanium 0
Potassium 2
Boron 5
Silicon 3
Sodium 4
Calcium 1048
Magnesium,748
Phosphorus 1052
Zinc 1253
Barium 0
Sus visc 86.3 mystik viscid lube
Flashpoint 445
Fuel <.5
Antifreeze 0
Water 0
Insoluble .3%
Tbn. 6.1




25k mystik /38 k rotella
Alum. 2 4
Chromium.3 3
Iron. 52 75
Copper. 2 3
Lead. 11 15
Tin. 3 2
Moly. 33 48
Nickel. 1
Manganese. 1
Silver. 0
Titanium. 0
Potassium. 24 7
Boron. 11
Silicon. 6 4
Sodium. 8 8
Calcium. 785
Magnesium. 815
Phos. 725
Zinc. 967
Barium. 0
Sus visc lucas96 84.9
Flashpoint. 400
Fuel. 1.0
Antifreeze. 0
Water. 0
Insolubles. .4
Tbn. 2.5



Those samples are from 2 different labs in 2 different oils on consecutive oc's. Blackstones notes said tbn was fine but recommended changing oil bc of the lead. If you notice the 2nd sample went 30% more miles with 30% more iron and lead. On the 37k mile t6 I changed the filters at 19k,31k and 37k sample. Topped off with 1.5 -2 gallons each filter swap. I have not changed it yet , what do yall think, I'm trying to learn what I can safely extend my oci to.

One final question, amsoil schaeffer or stick with the t6

Thanks ,yall are a wealth of info!!!!!!!
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1m60k miles bypass schaffer9k
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny 5k m1
85 cj7 4.2 performance build. Schaeffer 9000
08 cbr600rr graffiti. T6

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#4300916 - 01/12/17 09:35 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
901Memphis Offline


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 12588
Loc: Northern Kentucky
I don't know if you can make any big decisions off of two different uoas from two different labs because they may have different testing equipment
_________________________
2002 Buick Century 130k - Built 4T65e(Maxlife) - Edge 0w40 + Fram XG3980
1998 Nissan Altima 337k - 5MT - M1 HM 5w30/Fram Ultra XG7317+MOS+ATP 205

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#4300918 - 01/12/17 09:39 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 227
Loc: Sav ga
The first test was at a speedco, so I'm sure that test sucked, but interesting anyways
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1m60k miles bypass schaffer9k
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny 5k m1
85 cj7 4.2 performance build. Schaeffer 9000
08 cbr600rr graffiti. T6

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#4300942 - 01/12/17 10:09 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
Chris142 Offline


Registered: 06/05/03
Posts: 15288
Loc: apple valley, ca
Delo has a huge following here. Id try it.
_________________________
02 Wrangler super-s 10w30
87 F250 proline 15w40
04 Tahoe super-s 5w30
Z400 Lucas 10w30
KLR250 Maxima 10w40
Can am maveric edge 5w40

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#4300980 - 01/12/17 11:29 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
Ohle_Manezzini Offline


Registered: 07/05/16
Posts: 666
Loc: Pindorama
The hard data are from different: oils, engines, total mileages and ocis. That's dicey decision, IMO.

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#4301216 - 01/13/17 09:46 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 227
Loc: Sav ga
I just called the company that builds our reman engines, they told me I need to pull the oil pan off and check the bearings, he told me I would certainly be down in the copper. He doesn't read oil samples he doesn't have any data to go on, and that no matter what oil I run I need to back it down to 15,000 miles, and that no matter what engine or additional filtration or oil is available Detroit only recommends 15,000 change intervals, remind me not to call that guy again.

In other news when I do change out the oil on both trucks they are also getting Donaldson blue long life synthetic oil filters


Edited by NStuart (01/13/17 09:51 AM)
Edit Reason: 2 typo
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1m60k miles bypass schaffer9k
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny 5k m1
85 cj7 4.2 performance build. Schaeffer 9000
08 cbr600rr graffiti. T6

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#4301273 - 01/13/17 10:57 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 227
Loc: Sav ga
One more thing to add Detroit oil condemnation number 150ppm fe and 30ppm p b per bitog, how do condemnation numbers play into longevity?


Edited by NStuart (01/13/17 10:58 AM)
Edit Reason: Typo
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1m60k miles bypass schaffer9k
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny 5k m1
85 cj7 4.2 performance build. Schaeffer 9000
08 cbr600rr graffiti. T6

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#4301356 - 01/13/17 12:30 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
CT8 Offline


Registered: 10/09/14
Posts: 8898
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: NStuart
I just called the company that builds our reman engines, they told me I need to pull the oil pan off and check the bearings, he told me I would certainly be down in the copper. He doesn't read oil samples he doesn't have any data to go on, and that no matter what oil I run I need to back it down to 15,000 miles, and that no matter what engine or additional filtration or oil is available Detroit only recommends 15,000 change intervals, remind me not to call that guy again.

In other news when I do change out the oil on both trucks they are also getting Donaldson blue long life synthetic oil filters
Why? Why Amsoil? Why 5w oil?Running "long life" oil in a short life useage.

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#4301518 - 01/13/17 04:25 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
NStuart Offline


Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 227
Loc: Sav ga
I'm not going for short intervals
_________________________
Detroit 14l 1m60k miles bypass schaffer9k
96 ram 5.9 gas 80k built tranny 5k m1
85 cj7 4.2 performance build. Schaeffer 9000
08 cbr600rr graffiti. T6

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#4301777 - 01/13/17 10:10 PM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 6663
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
The first sample looks fine; good low wear for 10k miles. I'd continue to run and sample at set intervals.

The second sample isn't "bad", but the Fe is approaching a condemnation point, and the Pb is higher than a pleasing point. I'd suggest an OCI, but also see if you can ascertain the cause of the elevated metals. With two different lubes, you've seen some elevated levels. Time to look for a root cause. I'm not trying to alarm you; just caution you. Don't panic, just investigate.
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

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#4301921 - 01/14/17 07:51 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 7728
Loc: Upper Midwest
Just to be clear, the "condemnation limit" would be expressed in PPM per hour or mile, correct? And it applies to the engine, not the oil? Virtually no amount of metal in the oil that shows up in an ICP analysis would be detrimental to the engine, correct?
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 215K
1996 Honda Accord, 236K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 369K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 262K

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#4302071 - 01/14/17 11:08 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: kschachn]
dustyroads Offline


Registered: 05/13/13
Posts: 932
Loc: upstate NY
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Just to be clear, the "condemnation limit" would be expressed in PPM per hour or mile, correct? And it applies to the engine, not the oil? Virtually no amount of metal in the oil that shows up in an ICP analysis would be detrimental to the engine, correct?


I believe that Detroit words it as "warning levels" or maybe warning limits? The warning levels given in parts per million are for a standard oci, which in the case of a Series 60 is 15K miles. This is my understanding, not necessarily what Detroit means.

I think iron is listed as 150 or 200 ppm as a warning. While copper,lead and aluminum are 30ppm for warnings (again speaking of the series 60). My thought is that if you run a standard oci and see levels exceeding any of those, then you probably have something going wrong in the engine. Otherwise, continue to sample and monitor.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. In 18 years of truck ownership, I've been fortunate enough to have trouble free engines, and have no experience in diagnosing engine problems. Nor have I ever run super extended ocI's while working with an OEM or oil company for guidance.

Edit-I've had problems with injectors/injector cups and thus fuel dilution. Just never a problem with the engine internals.


Edited by dustyroads (01/14/17 11:13 AM)
_________________________
2013 Ford F150 5.0
Motorcraft 5W20 Fram PH10575





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#4302076 - 01/14/17 11:11 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: dustyroads]
kschachn Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 7728
Loc: Upper Midwest
Originally Posted By: dustyroads
I think iron is listed as 150 or 200 ppm as a warning. While copper,lead and aluminum are 30ppm for warnings (again speaking of the series 60). My thought is that if you run a standard oci and see levels exceeding any of those, then you probably have something going wrong in the engine. Otherwise, continue to sample and monitor.


That's what I would guess, the high readings mean a defect or issue with the engine. I've seen people here comment that the high readings mean the oil is condemned, which I don't believe is correct.
_________________________
1994 BMW 530i, 215K
1996 Honda Accord, 236K
1999 Toyota Sienna, 369K
2000 Toyota ECHO, 262K

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#4302106 - 01/14/17 11:46 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: NStuart]
dustyroads Offline


Registered: 05/13/13
Posts: 932
Loc: upstate NY
NStuart, could you list the viscosity at 100C (KV100) to complete the info.

I've never run a truck locally, so I can't offer you much. I would only advise you to pick a lab and stick with it. You should use one that provides soot %, as that is a concern and another condemnation point. There are plenty of good labs, but a good lab with very reasonable cost is ALS Tribology. You can get NAPA labeled kits from any NAPA dealer, and they go to ALS in Atlanta. Last I knew, their kits were about $14.00 or so.

I would try to pick an oil based on accessibility and overall cost. Overall cost being a combination of purchase price and the longevity you think can be achieved with it. Don't overlook the basic 15W40 oils, especially when using a good bypass filter. They are far better and longer lasting (TBN) than given credit for. I used to get Castrol Hypuron synblend (now called Vecton) at Fleetpride (a national truck parts distributor) for a very reasonable price. That oil had amazing TBN retention. The new CK-4 oils in general, are made to maintain good oil properties for longer intervals than previous generations.
_________________________
2013 Ford F150 5.0
Motorcraft 5W20 Fram PH10575





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#4302115 - 01/14/17 11:54 AM Re: Used and abused, your input is appreciated [Re: kschachn]
dnewton3 Offline



Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 6663
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Just to be clear, the "condemnation limit" would be expressed in PPM per hour or mile, correct? And it applies to the engine, not the oil? Virtually no amount of metal in the oil that shows up in an ICP analysis would be detrimental to the engine, correct?


The condemnation limit is any characteristic measured that has an established magnitude limit. In this case I was referring to the iron count.

I did, however, make a mistake; I thought that the DD FE limit was 100ppm.
Using this guide:
http://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/Publications/Documents/UsedOil%5C2008020.pdf (page 16)
I see that it was Cummins that has a 100ppm limit, whereas DD has a 150ppm limit for Fe.



Edited by dnewton3 (01/14/17 11:55 AM)
_________________________
Conventionals vs. Synthetics isn't about which is "better"; it's about which lasts longer, while assuring safe operation, in relation to cost. Any product can be over or under utilized. The same applies to filters.
Make an informed decision; first consider your operating conditions, next determine your maintenance plan, and then pick your lube and filter. Don't do it the other way around ...

Top
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