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#4299714 - 01/11/17 02:50 PM Danger Levels of ZDDP?
-SyN- Offline


Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 850
Loc: Tornado Alley
Within today's modern catalytic converters what are the limits of ZDDP within today's oils that will over time damage the function of converters themselves?
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#4299720 - 01/11/17 02:54 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: -SyN-]
09_GXP Offline


Registered: 12/14/10
Posts: 430
Loc: Indianapolis, IN
Not sure what you are asking for here. The systems today are designed to survive the limits of additives that are in modern oils. They are not tested against older specs so their survival cannot be guaranteed. If you use an oil that meets the recommendations of your owners manual then the aftertreatment system will be fine.
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#4299723 - 01/11/17 02:56 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: -SyN-]
-SyN- Offline


Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 850
Loc: Tornado Alley
What levels of Zinc/Phosphorus (PPM) are dangerous to today's cats?
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#4299730 - 01/11/17 03:04 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: -SyN-]
Miller88 Offline


Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 12703
Loc: Onondaga County
I don't think it matters unless you're burning significant amount of oil
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#4299731 - 01/11/17 03:08 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: -SyN-]
Ohle_Manezzini Offline


Registered: 07/05/16
Posts: 666
Loc: Pindorama
Above 900 ppm in a 20 weight oil.

Maybe above 1000 in a 30?

1200 in a 40?

1400 in a 50...

But it takes hundreds of thousand miles before ruining it in a normal (low) oil consumption engine.


Edited by Ohle_Manezzini (01/11/17 03:22 PM)

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#4299738 - 01/11/17 03:19 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: -SyN-]
SR5 Offline


Registered: 07/07/15
Posts: 4462
Loc: Down Under
ILSAC grades have ~ 800 ppm Zinc. I would call this minimum rather than optimum.

But Euro 40 grade A3/B4 oils like Edge & M1 0W40 have ~ 1000 ppm Zinc. These Euro cars, BMW's and Porsche and MB's seem to survive fine on a life of 1000 ppm Zinc oil.
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#4299745 - 01/11/17 03:26 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: -SyN-]
901Memphis Offline


Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 12893
Loc: Northern Kentucky
The phosphorus will damage the cat even at lower levels if it starts burning, the reduction in API certified oils was a compromise to stretch the life of the convertor past the required federal emissions warranty.
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#4299765 - 01/11/17 03:53 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: -SyN-]
MotoTribologist Offline


Registered: 02/03/16
Posts: 562
Loc: NJ, USA
The current upper limit on most automobile viscosity grades according to the API is 800 ppm phosphorus. However, like 901Memphis said, any amount is going to damage the cat over time if it is entering the exhaust system. The catalyst doesn't suddenly get effected by phosphorus above 800 ppm and have no reaction below that point. That 800 ppm limit is just an allowable amount that causes slower degradation than higher concentrations.

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#4299774 - 01/11/17 04:02 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: -SyN-]
Ohle_Manezzini Offline


Registered: 07/05/16
Posts: 666
Loc: Pindorama
Maybe, instead of 200k mikes life at 800 ppm, it will get 150k miles at 1500 ppm... on a 20 weight.


Edited by Ohle_Manezzini (01/11/17 04:04 PM)

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#4299779 - 01/11/17 04:07 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: -SyN-]
slacktide_bitog Offline


Registered: 03/20/08
Posts: 6159
Loc: USA
if the car is burning oil, it can

Otherwise it won't do any harm

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#4299787 - 01/11/17 04:18 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: -SyN-]
-SyN- Offline


Registered: 06/20/05
Posts: 850
Loc: Tornado Alley
Thank you everyone!
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12 Ford Edge-X2 Limited & SE->PP (HM) 10W-30


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#4299806 - 01/11/17 04:44 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: SR5]
Michael_P Offline


Registered: 08/20/07
Posts: 1784
Loc: .
Quote:
ILSAC grades have ~ 800 ppm Zinc. I would call this minimum rather than optimum.

But Euro 40 grade A3/B4 oils like Edge & M1 0W40 have ~ 1000 ppm Zinc. These Euro cars, BMW's and Porsche and MB's seem to survive fine on a life of 1000 ppm Zinc oil.


Furthermore, these Euro cars are designed to consume some oil. When I have put on aftermarket cats, it seems the better quality cat, the less prone it is for plugging up or seeing the dreaded 420 code. Even if you use high zinc oils.

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#4299825 - 01/11/17 05:09 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: -SyN-]
ShotGun429 Offline


Registered: 12/09/04
Posts: 426
Loc: Dayton,Ohio
How many cats do/did you guys see ruined by high zinc regular oils pre 2006? I doubt very many. BUT I see at least 3 flat tappet cam equipped cars (Stock cams and springs) with one or more lobes gone with the current off the shelf motor oils, fully 50 percent of my customers didnt know they had to run special higher zinc oils to prevent cam failures. I wish they had not messed with our oils.

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#4299898 - 01/11/17 07:33 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: Miller88]
KCJeep Offline


Registered: 06/30/11
Posts: 6998
Loc: Mahzurrah!
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I don't think it matters unless you're burning significant amount of oil


This!
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#4299941 - 01/11/17 08:25 PM Re: Danger Levels of ZDDP? [Re: ShotGun429]
JeepWJ19 Offline


Registered: 09/09/15
Posts: 932
Loc: PENNSYLVANIA
Originally Posted By: ShotGun429
How many cats do/did you guys see ruined by high zinc regular oils pre 2006? I doubt very many. BUT I see at least 3 flat tappet cam equipped cars (Stock cams and springs) with one or more lobes gone with the current off the shelf motor oils, fully 50 percent of my customers didnt know they had to run special higher zinc oils to prevent cam failures. I wish they had not messed with our oils.


My 4.0 has been fine throughout all the years of my ownership using SN PHM and now SN Mobil 1 HM and it was doing just fine from all the shop oil changes per the receipts shown to me by the elderly woman who was sole previous, and original, owner.

I guess I should expect my 4.0 to blow up any day now considering it hasn't been using API SL rated oil for the past 13 years?


Edited by JeepWJ19 (01/11/17 08:29 PM)
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