Thermostat, oil temperature and fuel dilution

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I've scattered a number of posts accross this forum over the last year about fuel dilution in my 2015 Honda CRV. Polaris Labs routinely reports dilution >5% despite a mostly-highway driving pattern. Discussions with my dealer and American Honda have been unproductive.

But, after too much wasted time and energy, based on other UOAs found here and there, I've concluded that this level of dilution is not uncommon with the K24W DI engine/CVT combination, so my car seems to be operating as intended. (As a side note, Blackstone seems to consistently underestimate high levels of fuel dilution compared to labs that use gas chromotography, frequently by 3 percentage points or more: what's of no consequence to Blackstone is a "red-flag" panic to a GC lab.)

During my time spent roaming the internet in search of a solution I did find that Honda has changed the coolant thermostat in 2016 models, upping the temperature by 9 degrees F. I understand that oil temperatures and coolant temperartures are closely related, at least outside of aggressive driving situations. So here are my two questions:

1) Would a 9 degree F increase in operating coolant temperature increase oil temperature enough to make a meanginful difference in the amount of fuel that would evaporate during normal driving conditions? In the case of my car, it seems dilution increases to a point of equilibrium. Maybe a small temperature increase would tip the scales and make this point lower?

2) Honda has apparently tuned the K24W engines to maximize fuel economy, perhaps at the expense of factors like fuel dilution. Given Honda probably can't reduce the cause of fuel dilution without affecting fuel economy, does it seem reasonable that increasing coolant temperature would be a logical response in its part to reduce the amount of fuel that remains in the engine oil?

Of course, Honda is very unlikely to admit there was an issue with 2015 and prior engines and will not issue a recall to replace thermostats in the million or so K24Ws out there. But I would be willing to pay to replace mine if it was even a partial solution.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Dan
 
I've been a big proponent from day 1 that your car is fine and operating as expected. I'm glad to hear you are reaching this conclusion as well.

A 9 Deg_F a proper move to help reduce fuel dilution. I have first hand experience with this working on engines in development. I would expect to see around a 2% improvement in fuel dilution with this change. It could be more or less depending on the specifics of this engine's design.

I would still hesitate to say there is an issue with the previous engines so a recall in unlikely. Depending on where Honda is at on the emissions validation phases it may require re-certification if the older engines are changed.
 
Originally Posted By: Ramblejam
With that DI engine, what octane are you running?


The manual calls for 87. These results were with 89 octane. I'm going to try a couple thousand miles on 93, which may make a difference, but the price difference between 87 and 93 octane is ridiculous in my neck of the woods ($.70/gal).
 
Coolant temps are not related to oil temps unless there is a fairly big coolant/oil heat exchanger. Also, on average the oil temperature will hover around 80-90C (176-194F) which is plenty hot to evaporate moisture and fuel, a 9F increase will have a marginal effect. Also, also, fuel fully mixes with oil and there is no way to get rid of all the fuel from oil no matter how hot it gets.

I don't remember if it was your thread in the past, but I mention it time and time again, the best option for engine that show higher level of fuel dilution is shorten the OCI.
 
Originally Posted By: KrisZ
Coolant temps are not related to oil temps unless there is a fairly big coolant/oil heat exchanger. Also, on average the oil temperature will hover around 80-90C (176-194F) which is plenty hot to evaporate moisture and fuel, a 9F increase will have a marginal effect. Also, also, fuel fully mixes with oil and there is no way to get rid of all the fuel from oil no matter how hot it gets.

I don't remember if it was your thread in the past, but I mention it time and time again, the best option for engine that show higher level of fuel dilution is shorten the OCI.
Not sure I buy this-short tripping & failure to get gas engines fully hot definitely increases fuel in engine oil-extended high speed temps would cause the fuel to evaporate, get sucked into the PCV system, & burned. There might be a few heavier components left behind, but it would definitely make a difference to run the engine hotter to get rid of excess fuel, & moisture in the crankcase.
 
Originally Posted By: 09_GXP
I've been a big proponent from day 1 that your car is fine and operating as expected. I'm glad to hear you are reaching this conclusion as well.

A 9 Deg_F a proper move to help reduce fuel dilution. I have first hand experience with this working on engines in development. I would expect to see around a 2% improvement in fuel dilution with this change. It could be more or less depending on the specifics of this engine's design.

I would still hesitate to say there is an issue with the previous engines so a recall in unlikely. Depending on where Honda is at on the emissions validation phases it may require re-certification if the older engines are changed.


Thanks for the thoughts. So you think a simple thermostat swap could affect emissions certification? I would only do this through my dealer, who in turn would probably only do it after talking to Honda which would likely say "no" if that was the case. Could do it myself, but would worry about unintended consequences...

And you're probably right that there is nothing seriously "wrong" with the engines out there, but Honda must've made this change for a reason. Normal or not, I'm just not comfortable with 100C viscosity of c. 6.5 after 3,000 miles and heading south. But maybe Honda is ready for 0w-16.
 
Originally Posted By: Danh
Originally Posted By: 09_GXP
I've been a big proponent from day 1 that your car is fine and operating as expected. I'm glad to hear you are reaching this conclusion as well.

A 9 Deg_F a proper move to help reduce fuel dilution. I have first hand experience with this working on engines in development. I would expect to see around a 2% improvement in fuel dilution with this change. It could be more or less depending on the specifics of this engine's design.

I would still hesitate to say there is an issue with the previous engines so a recall in unlikely. Depending on where Honda is at on the emissions validation phases it may require re-certification if the older engines are changed.


Thanks for the thoughts. So you think a simple thermostat swap could affect emissions certification? I would only do this through my dealer, who in turn would probably only do it after talking to Honda which would likely say "no" if that was the case. Could do it myself, but would worry about unintended consequences...

And you're probably right that there is nothing seriously "wrong" with the engines out there, but Honda must've made this change for a reason. Normal or not, I'm just not comfortable with 100C viscosity of c. 6.5 after 3,000 miles and heading south. But maybe Honda is ready for 0w-16.



It's unlikely but it could effect the emissions certs. It just depends on how close to the edge of the different emissions bins the vehicle is. Doing a one off swap at your dealer would be fine. Honda issuing a recall and making all vehicles change is where things could get complicated. Just tell the dealer that you would like the new thermostat installed and leave it at that.
 
I wonder if there's a new updated thermostat available. If so I would be tempted to have them put one in. Maybe a reprogram of the computer is available as well. Check for any tsbs on the matter. I would also fill up with 87 octane from Shell preferably from a newer, high volume station. I remember www.driveaccord.net had a few techs on there that were very knowledgeable. Maybe join a CRV forum and see what others have to say.
 
I didn't see where anyone mentioned the coolant temp sensor. Given your car is a 2015, one would usually rule that out. However, if it bothers you this much you might want to consider it as another possibility. Your car may have more than one ECT sensor.

When my 18yr old one finally went Toes Up, starting in 50°F took about 8 min. rather than 3sec. The sled only has a single ECT, thus EVERYTHING needing to do with engine temp is based off of that one sensor.
 
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