Helix 15w-40 vs GTX 15w-40

[B320i]

Doing a bit of sleuthing, it seems the PDS for both the oils are rather vague. Neither list many of the "key" bits of data bandied about BITOG (terms which escape me at present).

The PDS for GTX does list HTHS as 3.95cP, the Helix lists neither.

Obviously with both being A3/B3 oils, there is guarantee of being the minimum 3.5HTHS. I do wonder which would technically be considered superior, Shell (with its highly competitive price-point at KMart) or Castrol-GTX?

Castrol GTX Modern Engine 15w-40

Shell Helix 15w-40

 

[Tommiee]

I like the shell more out of the 2 based on the pds. Lower pour points and a little thinner then the castrol.

Since you can get the shell cheaper, i would use the shell oil.

 

[FCD]

Most likely your engine will not know the difference between 2 Mineral 15W-40 oils that meet SN/A3/B3, i would use Shell Helix if you can get it cheaper.

 

[SR5]

Hey B320I,

Good Question. I recently purchased and used some GTX15W40, as I like my 15W40's to be slightly on the thicker side. It performed well and I got a smoking hot deal of $20 for 5L and a free Repco oil filter. As you know regular retail for just the oil would be something like $36.

At another recent oil sale (Repco or SCA) I picked up some semi-synthetic Shell Helix HX7 10W40 (SN, A3/B4, MB 229.3, VW 502/505) at $20 for 5 L sale price. I think the semi-synthetic 10W40's when on sale in OZ are the best bang for your buck oils in the country. HX7 and Magnatec 10W40 are regularly on sale.

If I wanted a stouter mineral 15W40, then I would also consider a mixed fleet HDEO like Castrol RX Super 15W40. They are everywhere, but not on sale as often.

Castrol has just released GTX 10W30 UltraClean in Australia. It's a semi-synthetic GTX, that's twice as good at fighting sludge as the old GTX. According to their web page, they will release a new GTX 15W40 UltraClean soon. I would love to give that new GTX a run, but it will be 6 to 12 months before any new product will be at a decent sale price.

 

[SR5]

Here is a link to the Oz Castrol RX Super 15W40 (white bottle)
(RX Super 15W40 PDS)

So you have:
Shell Helix HX5 15W40 (SN / CF & A3/B3)
KV100 = 14.27 cSt
KV40 = 106.0
PP = - 45C
FP = 241C

Castrol GTX 15W40 "Modern Engine" (SN / CF & A3/B3)
KV100 = 14.5
KV40 = 113
PP = -36 C
TBN = 8.3
HTHS = 3.95 cP

Castrol RX Super 15W40 HDEO ( API CI-4Plus / SL & ACEA E7)
KV100 = 15.9 cSt
KV40 = 125
PP = -33C
FP = 210C
SA = 1.39
TBN = 10.9

Take your pick

 

[B320i]

Thanks SR5 for the detailed information. From the information presented, RX-Super would certainly be suitable for a long-drain (about 12,000km) on a petrol engine, especially given the sale price on-par with many synthetics.

GTX looks good too, the addition of HTHS information would make one more comfortable knowing it is pretty stout - makes me wonder where the RX-Super sits against it?

The Helix seems the thinnest of the bunch, having a much lower pour-point. Lacking HTHS & TBN info makes it hard to figure where this sits. Not that it really matters in the long run, although I'm genuinely curious. I suppose the competitive pricing suggests it is probably the inferior all of the three you've detailed above.

 

[SR5]

The RX would be my pick for heavy duty applications, given it's an old school HDEO, you would expect high TBN, high Zinc and high HTHS. I heard in the old day, this is the oil Porsche mechanics ran in the old air-cooled 911's in Oz and it performed well.

It's easy to write the HX5 off at first glance, but it has the best PP and the best FP. Either Castrol is being a bit lazy with it's figures, or maybe the HX5 has a bit of Group 3 synthetic in it. Just maybe.

In the end, I don't think any of them will let you down.

 

[SR5]

From Doug Hillary:

Quote:
Hi,
IMHO the key to successfully using HDEOs in petrol engines is to ensure that they have dual diesel/petrol engine Quality ratings - API or ACEA or both - (a "mixed fleet" lubricant in the Commercial World) and a suitable viscosity

Some facts
1 - Porsche mandated HDEOs for their first engines (1950s - 356) and onwards to the 911/912 Series. They were the Factory fill
2 - Porsche maintained a "dual rated" lubricant requirement (PCMO) up until factory filling with a synthetic lubricant in 1992
3 - Variability in "M","S", "C" etc. series of engine lubricants in 1950-1960s caused me to do considerable research and testing on the use of HDEOs in petrol engines in this period. This was with excellent results in a wide variety of engine families - especially in Europe
4 - All VW and BMC engine families of the time performed best on an HDEO
5 - The minimum standard I used for many years in selecting HDEOs was the CAT Series 3 (and supplements) specification along with the MIL ratings and those from DB (I worked for Caltex-Chevron in Europe during this period)
6 - I have used HDEOs in many of my engines for over 50 years - always with excellent results
7 - I have used synthetic HDEOs in all of my Porsche engines and still do - and they are very widely used in the Porsche community (especially 8 - I use synthetic HDEOs at extended OCIs in a wide variety of friend's and family's engines that range from Toyota, Mazda etc thru GM and Ford to MB and Porsche
9 - The most professional Service Provider in this area (Australian Tropics) uses an HDEO exclusively as his service fill lubricant (Castrol RX Super) and has done so for a decade or two. Engines under warranty or with specific needs get what they require of course. He is BMW Factory trained and very well qualified. The range of vehicles maintained by him and his staff include Ferraris, Rollers, Maseratis, Porsches along with a wide spread of your average vehicles
10 - Many Porsche Service Providers use a 15W-40 HDEO in all
When using an HDEO in any petrol engine care must be given to the engine's lubricant requirement, the lubricant's specification as alluded to above, and to the viscosity requirements in relationship to the expected ambient temperature range of operation

As I stated earlier, Commercially available diesel engine lubricants (Commercial lubricants) that are not dual rated should NOT be used in petrol engines as excessive wear may be an outcome. This wear will most likely occur in the ring/piston/bore area


Edited by Doug Hillary (06/03/09 04:42 PM)
Edit Reason: Accuracy - spelling
_________________________
Regards
Doug


Thread:
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1485664/1

 

[B320i]

The quote from Doug Hillary above leads me to another question - the ACEA B3 (or B4, where applicable) is a diesel rating, as seemingly evidenced here. Obviously, I suspect he meant something "further" like Rotella, RX or any other dual-rated oil.

I was entertaining the thought of trying RX-Super, although discovering the price point of Helix did give me pause... Still have not changed out the Penrite yet (and at about 9,000km since the fill, its not ready anyway).

The thought of running diesel oil for a while does make me wonder if it will clean up the top-end varnish and maybe clean up whatever is responsible for my lifter tick (although I'm loosing optimism on ever curing this without a tear-down and rebuild). Given the usual cost of RX Super, I'd almost be better off buying Rotella T6 from the Aussie eBay seller. About $44/Gal + Shipping.

 

[4WD]

ZDDP/HTHS above all else ... reckon HDEO is a cheap option. I've stocked up Delvac 15w40 at 4.3/1187 for $13/gal.

 

[SR5]

Yeah, I've read a few of Doug's older post, they are worth tracking down.

I believe ACEA B3 & B4 are for light duty diesel cars, like a Golf TDI etc.

The ACEA E7 or E9 plus the API CI-4, CJ-4 are for commercial heavy duty trucks. Here we are talking about Rotella, Delvac, Delo, RX, etc.

According to some other posts I have read from Doug, the biggest difference is in the soot handling ability and TBN / SAPS level of the HDEO commercial trucking oils.

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/1239512/1
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1958969
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2880768/1

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
I have been a long term user (over a decade plus/many millions of kms/various engine families) of ... Delvac 1 5w-40

What really makes these products so good is their soot handling abilities and typically their retention of viscosity and TBN

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: Doug Hillary
Hi,
the ACEA Quality standards have been around since 1996. The numbering suystem is dynamic and some have been made obsolete over time. In simple terms 1 is the lightest type of "duty cycle" and 7 is at the heavy end. The numbers may vary year on year. Expect an E8 in the future for example.

In the case of the "B" and "E" standards;

B = Light duty diesel engines (simple explanation)
B2 is for general purpose use at normal drain intervals
B3 is similar to B2 but for extended drain intervals and in year round viscosity grades

E = Heavy duty diesel engines (simple explanation)
E3 is for Euro 1 and Euro 2 compliance
E5 offers better overall "component" performance and embraces all to Euro 3
E6 embraces all to Euro 4, is suitable for EGR engines with/without particulate filters, and for use with low sulphur fuel
E7 is similar to E6 but is designed for more severe operating conditions

Note Euro engine makers may be very specific about the use of a specific ACEA Quality standard of lubricant. This is due to the types of technologies used

 

[SR5]

Right now at Repco, the GTX 15W40 is on sale for $18 for 5L (3-15 Jan)

At SuperCheapAuto, Castrol Magnatec 10W40 is on sale at $23.60 for 5L (45% off) It's SN & A3/B4 semi-synthetic (Ends Friday 13 Jan).
I think the same Magnatec 10W40 is even cheaper at AutoBarn 50% OFF, at $20 for 5L (to 8 Jan)

Can't get better than that in Oz.

 

[hpb]

Thanks for that pricing info SR5. Looks like the old Falcon might get a birthday soon!

 

[SonofJoe]

Ah, two very old friends of mine (although my efforts on both oils have long since been superceded).

Both the GTX & HX5 15W40s will probably be very similar in their basic structure; Group II with a smidge of Group III, 22 SSI OCP VII (Lz 7077), a nothing special DI delivering 8-ish TBN and 800 - 1000ppm of Phos.

If I had to pick one out if the two, it would probably be the Shell oil. Their internal 'rigidity' means that they tend to over-formulate their oils so you end up with an oil that contains more DI than it strictly needs and has a better base oil mix than is required. I should add that this doesn't always make for a 'better' oil but for 15W40s it probably does.

 

[zoli]

Castrol GTX 15W40 applied in my air-cooled 1.3 boxer engine and was performing very well by 3K miles OCI.

 

[SR5]

Thanks for that Joe, it's always good to have a bit of an idea of how they are put together.

Yep mineral 15W40 is sold by the truck load here in Oz. A very popular grade of oil. If you point to a random car on the road in Australia, I would guess it would have a 40% chance of have 15W40 mineral in it, a 40% chance of having 10W40 semi-synthetic in it, a 10% chance of having 20W50 in it, and a 10% chance of it being something else.

I've known cars to spend their whole life on nothing but GTX / HX5 15W40 every 10,000 KM, and cover 100,000's KM without trouble.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: hpb
Thanks for that pricing info SR5. Looks like the old Falcon might get a birthday soon!


No worries hpb, your signature says it's all
Quote:
2006 Ford Falcon 4.0, 118,000km - Castrol GTX 15w40, Ryco filter

 

[SonofJoe]

SR5,

Although somewhat maligned these days, 15W40 oils, even full Group I SL/CF A3/B3 ones were getting towards being very good. Now that they are primarily based on Group II, they are even better. You get good oxidation stability, 8 TBN min, a goodly amount of Zinc, great film strength, low wear and, most importantly, you get lowish Noack volatility. The only thing you don't get is the best fuel economy but if you live in a hot place like Oz where every journey is potentially a long one, this may not be top of everyone's list of priorities.

The other thing I might add is that because 15W40 oils are as often as not formulated as a matrix (rather than individually), they tend to carry the treat rate of DI needed for the more problematic 10W40 grade. As such, most 15W40s benefit from being over-formulated.

The only thing better than a 15W40 in my mind is a 15W30 with a 3.5 HTHS and virtually no VII. Sadly these aren't that common. One day, when I've got my own oil company, I might launch one!

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: SonofJoe

a 15W30 with a 3.5 HTHS and virtually no VII.

That sounds like a great oil, I would use it.