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#4275158 - 12/15/16 02:59 AM Re: HIGH COPPER in my 2008 Elantra UOA [Re: pbm]
SonofJoe Offline


Registered: 07/23/16
Posts: 996
Loc: Europe
If that second column of numbers is correct, then that SJ Proline 5W30 has a somewhat strange additive pack. I've seen all Calcium systems, all Magnesium systems and mixed Ca/Mg systems which are roughly 1:1 but nothing that is 1:4 before.

Also the combined Ca + Mg at 1000 ppm looks very low. Ca & Mg detergents tend to stay put in the oil regardless of how long you run the oil so this low figure would give me cause for concern. The implication of a low combined Ca + Mg number is that the oil started its life with a low TBN. And here's the rub. The only time I've seen Copper numbers rise by this magnitude is when you have acid attack as a result of total loss of TBN and AO control. However this is inconsistent with the fact that your used oil still seems to possess some TBN reserve and the KV100 is on-grade (if you had lost all AO control, you would expect this to rise tenfold).

There's one other possibility that comes to mind. Back in the late-90's, Paramins (the then Exxon lube add company) was big on Copper antioxidants. I only know this because there was a big legal bust-up with Exxon successfully suing Lubrizol for infringing its Cu AO patents. This is an SJ oil so may well be blended with some old, obscure DI pack which may possibly contain Copper. If this is the case, then you have nothing to worry about because the Copper isn't coming from your bearings or radiator but was in the oil from the moment you added it.



Edited by SonofJoe (12/15/16 03:01 AM)

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#4275248 - 12/15/16 07:38 AM Re: HIGH COPPER in my 2008 Elantra UOA [Re: SonofJoe]
UltrafanUK Offline


Registered: 04/18/16
Posts: 985
Loc: England
Interesting post as I did not know any oil company had used an additive that has Copper compounds in it.

When you analyse a UOA, it is essential to have both the VOA of the new oil and a set of universal averages from the same type of engine.

I did not notice the Ca was so low and I agree that the oil in use is not a good one in both detergent and AW additive terms.

PS: The PQIA has 2 VOA's of ProLine and PROLINE (Seems to be 2 different companies) 5w30 and neither oil has any Cu in their VOA.


Edited by UltrafanUK (12/15/16 07:44 AM)
_________________________
Shell Ultra 0 or 5w40 or Liqui Moly 5w40 plus Ceratec every long OCI.
LM idle flush every 100K km.

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#4275270 - 12/15/16 08:10 AM Re: HIGH COPPER in my 2008 Elantra UOA [Re: SonofJoe]
pbm Offline


Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 7480
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
If that second column of numbers is correct, then that SJ Proline 5W30 has a somewhat strange additive pack. I've seen all Calcium systems, all Magnesium systems and mixed Ca/Mg systems which are roughly 1:1 but nothing that is 1:4 before.

Also the combined Ca + Mg at 1000 ppm looks very low. Ca & Mg detergents tend to stay put in the oil regardless of how long you run the oil so this low figure would give me cause for concern. The implication of a low combined Ca + Mg number is that the oil started its life with a low TBN. And here's the rub. The only time I've seen Copper numbers rise by this magnitude is when you have acid attack as a result of total loss of TBN and AO control. However this is inconsistent with the fact that your used oil still seems to possess some TBN reserve and the KV100 is on-grade (if you had lost all AO control, you would expect this to rise tenfold).

There's one other possibility that comes to mind. Back in the late-90's, Paramins (the then Exxon lube add company) was big on Copper antioxidants. I only know this because there was a big legal bust-up with Exxon successfully suing Lubrizol for infringing its Cu AO patents. This is an SJ oil so may well be blended with some old, obscure DI pack which may possibly contain Copper. If this is the case, then you have nothing to worry about because the Copper isn't coming from your bearings or radiator but was in the oil from the moment you added it.



SoJ and Ultrafan:

Thanks for your informative replies....these are the kind of posts I was hoping for. I have a half qt. of this Proline oil left so I may do a virgin UOA to see if it contains copper.
Prior to the Proline I ran an older SJ rated '76' brand 10w30 (last summer). As you can see, it may be part of the reason for the 1:4 calcium/magnesium ratio.

This is what Terry Dyson said about the 76 oil several years ago:

"For the fella that was interested in the 76 lubes older formula we tested. Relies on dipserants and not detergents for longevity. Lab was Amsoils old OAI lab.


V100C 10.6 cSt

TBN 5.7

si 2
b 13
mg 196
ca 574
p 574
zn 809


Interesting oil and it performed well in a 2.9 I 6 Volvo S80 test engine."

Terry


PS: This Elantra doesn't use any oil in the my typical 5 to 6K run...because I never know how many miles to expect from my daughter, I plan on using synthetic from now on as a precaution.

Thanks again guys.

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#4295631 - 01/07/17 10:28 AM Re: HIGH COPPER in my 2008 Elantra UOA [Re: pbm]
pbm Offline


Registered: 04/19/04
Posts: 7480
Loc: New York
I just wanted to give an update....I had a VOA done on this oil and SonofJoe is correct...the VOA showed 86 ppm of copper.....apparently I used an oil with this Paramins additive package which used copper anti-oxidants.


We are lucky to have such knowledgeable people as SoJ on this site....

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#4302724 - 01/15/17 03:20 AM Re: HIGH COPPER in my 2008 Elantra UOA [Re: pbm]
SonofJoe Offline


Registered: 07/23/16
Posts: 996
Loc: Europe
Just out of pure curiosity, I did a bit of Googling to try and find out what this copper additive was.

It seems it was invented by two old Exxon colleagues of mine; Terry Colclough and John Marsh. Give that the patent was filed in 1989, these guys are now either happily retired or have gone to The Great Laboratory In The Sky!

Several copper compounds are mentioned in the patent...

Copper Oleate. Fairly simple stuff where you react C18 oleic acid with copper hydroxide.

Copper Dialkyl Dithio-Phosphate. This is an analogue of common Zinc Dialkyl Dithio-Phosphate (ZDDP)

Copper Dialkyl Dithio Carbamate. This is an analogue of common Moly Dialkyl Dithio Carbamate (MoDDC).

The patent gives a clue as to why these copper compounds were initially successful but ultimately disappeared . Whilst they were pretty good antioxidants, anything over 100 ppm of copper in oil caused a significant increase in wear. As wear specs tighted up over the years, I suspect copper compounds were displaced by Moly which is both a brilliant AO and good on wear.

Interesting stuff!

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