2016 Utility Dive Awards
- Thread starter Shannow
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It was interesting reading on this site about the push in Florida for "Amendment 1" that went down to defeat in this last election. It was billed as pro solar but if you read the whole bill it was intended to "kill" solar investment in the private sector.
If solar is viable as a stand alone product, how could any bill kill solar investment?
Originally Posted By: OneEyeJack
It was interesting reading on this site about the push in Florida for "Amendment 1" that went down to defeat in this last election. It was billed as pro solar but if you read the whole bill it was intended to "kill" solar investment in the private sector.
Not many people even skim the contents of what they vote for.
It was interesting reading on this site about the push in Florida for "Amendment 1" that went down to defeat in this last election. It was billed as pro solar but if you read the whole bill it was intended to "kill" solar investment in the private sector.
Not many people even skim the contents of what they vote for.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: Danno
If solar is viable as a stand alone product, how could any bill kill solar investment?
By killing or capping the net metering.
The cost of a KWh delivered to your meter includes the infrastructure that's required to get it there 24/7, provide system control, frequency control, distribution and stability...there's a reason that the retail cost of electricity is 4-6 times the generation cost.
Nett metering means that you get paid the same, for generation only, as the entire distribution chain gets for the provision of the regulated product.
Nett metering isn't fair, it's a subsidy...so getting rid of it is simply removing a crutch to an uneconomic product.
Originally Posted By: Danno
If solar is viable as a stand alone product, how could any bill kill solar investment?
By killing or capping the net metering.
The cost of a KWh delivered to your meter includes the infrastructure that's required to get it there 24/7, provide system control, frequency control, distribution and stability...there's a reason that the retail cost of electricity is 4-6 times the generation cost.
Nett metering means that you get paid the same, for generation only, as the entire distribution chain gets for the provision of the regulated product.
Nett metering isn't fair, it's a subsidy...so getting rid of it is simply removing a crutch to an uneconomic product.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: Danno
If solar is viable as a stand alone product, how could any bill kill solar investment?
By killing or capping the net metering.
The cost of a KWh delivered to your meter includes the infrastructure that's required to get it there 24/7, provide system control, frequency control, distribution and stability...there's a reason that the retail cost of electricity is 4-6 times the generation cost.
Nett metering means that you get paid the same, for generation only, as the entire distribution chain gets for the provision of the regulated product.
Nett metering isn't fair, it's a subsidy...so getting rid of it is simply removing a crutch to an uneconomic product.
When you push your meter backwards, the electricity goes to your next door neighbor. Why should you have to pay T&D costs.
Originally Posted By: SHOZ
Originally Posted By: Danno
If solar is viable as a stand alone product, how could any bill kill solar investment?
By killing or capping the net metering.
The cost of a KWh delivered to your meter includes the infrastructure that's required to get it there 24/7, provide system control, frequency control, distribution and stability...there's a reason that the retail cost of electricity is 4-6 times the generation cost.
Nett metering means that you get paid the same, for generation only, as the entire distribution chain gets for the provision of the regulated product.
Nett metering isn't fair, it's a subsidy...so getting rid of it is simply removing a crutch to an uneconomic product.
When you push your meter backwards, the electricity goes to your next door neighbor. Why should you have to pay T&D costs.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
When you push your meter backwards, the electricity goes to your next door neighbor. Why should you have to pay T&D costs.
why should you get full retail ?
run an extension lead over the fence if you are a co-op...
When you push your meter backwards, the electricity goes to your next door neighbor. Why should you have to pay T&D costs.
why should you get full retail ?
run an extension lead over the fence if you are a co-op...
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
When you push your meter backwards, the electricity goes to your next door neighbor. Why should you have to pay T&D costs.
why should you get full retail ?
run an extension lead over the fence if you are a co-op...
Because you deliver at the meter. The full retail point.
Your biases are so engrained you toss logic.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
When you push your meter backwards, the electricity goes to your next door neighbor. Why should you have to pay T&D costs.
why should you get full retail ?
run an extension lead over the fence if you are a co-op...
Because you deliver at the meter. The full retail point.
Your biases are so engrained you toss logic.
Originally Posted By: Shannow
and how does it get to your neighbour's meter, without you owning the extension lead ???
You're way way behind the times. Retail wheeling kicked in 20 years ago. I can choose from a large number of power suppliers. They call all the time with lower rates than the utility.
I guess i need to hold a remedial class for power plant dinosaurs.
and how does it get to your neighbour's meter, without you owning the extension lead ???
You're way way behind the times. Retail wheeling kicked in 20 years ago. I can choose from a large number of power suppliers. They call all the time with lower rates than the utility.
I guess i need to hold a remedial class for power plant dinosaurs.
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Even retail would be a massive improvement over what they are paid here in Ontario and what used to be the case in Australia before the subsidy was scrapped. Retail rates vary between 8.8 and 18 cents per KWh here. Wholesale is 4.8 (hydro) to 42.2 (solar) for major providers. The rates given to FIT subsidy receivers are 60+ cents per KWh, which was the same case in Australia before the pulled the carpet out from beneath that scheme.
Given the tiered TOU billing model, solar providers receiving retail would average close to the 18 cent peak price during the winter months and lower, likely close to the mid-peak rate, during the longer exposure period of the summer, where off and mid peak contributions would happen. So it would average out pretty well.
I believe Australia pays them around 7.7 cents now, after the removal of the subsidy.
Given the tiered TOU billing model, solar providers receiving retail would average close to the 18 cent peak price during the winter months and lower, likely close to the mid-peak rate, during the longer exposure period of the summer, where off and mid peak contributions would happen. So it would average out pretty well.
I believe Australia pays them around 7.7 cents now, after the removal of the subsidy.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Shannow
and how does it get to your neighbour's meter, without you owning the extension lead ???
You're way way behind the times. Retail wheeling kicked in 20 years ago. I can choose from a large number of power suppliers. They call all the time with lower rates than the utility.
I guess i need to hold a remedial class for power plant dinosaurs.
What's that got to do with whose infrastructure gets the electricity from your panels to your neighbour's meter, and why you should NOT get full retail rates (nett) for your excess generation ???
"Look over there, a strawman riding a unicorn" ???
Originally Posted By: Shannow
and how does it get to your neighbour's meter, without you owning the extension lead ???
You're way way behind the times. Retail wheeling kicked in 20 years ago. I can choose from a large number of power suppliers. They call all the time with lower rates than the utility.
I guess i need to hold a remedial class for power plant dinosaurs.
What's that got to do with whose infrastructure gets the electricity from your panels to your neighbour's meter, and why you should NOT get full retail rates (nett) for your excess generation ???
"Look over there, a strawman riding a unicorn" ???
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Shannow
and how does it get to your neighbour's meter, without you owning the extension lead ???
You're way way behind the times. Retail wheeling kicked in 20 years ago. I can choose from a large number of power suppliers. They call all the time with lower rates than the utility.
I guess i need to hold a remedial class for power plant dinosaurs.
What's that got to do with whose infrastructure gets the electricity from your panels to your neighbour's meter, and why you should NOT get full retail rates (nett) for your excess generation ???
"Look over there, a strawman riding a unicorn" ???
You say net metering is not fair. Not fair to who? You want distributed generation to be paid the same as your plant? Then that's fair?
I find many of your opinions revolve around fear of losing your job. I think its the same way for 90% of the anti ethanol people.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Originally Posted By: Shannow
and how does it get to your neighbour's meter, without you owning the extension lead ???
You're way way behind the times. Retail wheeling kicked in 20 years ago. I can choose from a large number of power suppliers. They call all the time with lower rates than the utility.
I guess i need to hold a remedial class for power plant dinosaurs.
What's that got to do with whose infrastructure gets the electricity from your panels to your neighbour's meter, and why you should NOT get full retail rates (nett) for your excess generation ???
"Look over there, a strawman riding a unicorn" ???
You say net metering is not fair. Not fair to who? You want distributed generation to be paid the same as your plant? Then that's fair?
I find many of your opinions revolve around fear of losing your job. I think its the same way for 90% of the anti ethanol people.
No, you project your P.O.V. into what you perceive my motivations are...thus you get them wrong the most of the time, but get to feel all smug and self satisfied at your conclusions.
How is net metering fair when the cost of getting a KWh TO you involves a whole lot of other people's equipment, and getting it to your neighbour's meter similarly involves a whole lot of other people's equipment ?
And other people have to provide the FCAS services as your distributed generation doesn't do any of that...
Tell me HOW in turtletopia Nett metering IS fair.
As to ethanol, it's not part of this topic, I'll stick to the other threads to discuss it, and your incorrect beliefs on that topic.
How is net metering fair when the cost of getting a KWh TO you involves a whole lot of other people's equipment, and getting it to your neighbour's meter similarly involves a whole lot of other people's equipment ?
And other people have to provide the FCAS services as your distributed generation doesn't do any of that...
Tell me HOW in turtletopia Nett metering IS fair.
As to ethanol, it's not part of this topic, I'll stick to the other threads to discuss it, and your incorrect beliefs on that topic.
You want to charge full transmission and distribution costs for sending power one address away?
All generators have governors and provide their share of frequency control.
Whether it has to do with your job security or not you always seem to shun anything new, progressive, different than what's in your comfort zone, or just about anything different from what's been done in the past.
It's disconcerting for me to see this from an intelligent person.
All generators have governors and provide their share of frequency control.
Whether it has to do with your job security or not you always seem to shun anything new, progressive, different than what's in your comfort zone, or just about anything different from what's been done in the past.
It's disconcerting for me to see this from an intelligent person.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
You want to charge full transmission and distribution costs for sending power one address away?
Did I SAY that ?
No.
I said that it was unfair for the homeowner to get PAID as though they were supplying all of that infrastructure (i.e. net metering, they get the same as the sum total of the grid leading up to their house.
I used the extension lead over the fence analogy to demonstrate my point.
Give them the wholesale price, plus their renewable certificates would be my fair assessment.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
All generators have governors and provide their share of frequency control.
Which these solar (and wind) do NOT provide...they harvest and put energy into the grid, not ancillary services and frequency control...you KNOW that.
As they displace traditional generation, these services get lumbered on fewer and fewer machines that have these governors that you speak of.
BTW, new CCGTs and others coming in have governors that do not respond to frequency, they simply provide power as well (and VARs), but no frequency response inherently until given an up command from system control, and the $$$ that come with it.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Whether it has to do with your job security or not you always seem to shun anything new, progressive, different than what's in your comfort zone, or just about anything different from what's been done in the past.
I shun stupid stuff when it's pushed with an agenda rather than science and logic.
You may see that as "not progressive", but progressive should be based on something factual... I know that you deal mostly in what "feels" like it should be right, no matter how wrong it is in fact....like Ethanol produces NO CO when burned in an engine...someone is into the coolaid, and that's NOT progressive, it's sheeple.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
It's disconcerting for me to see this from an intelligent person.
It's disconcerting seeing you have to manufacture my position so that you can strawman argue it away.
You want to charge full transmission and distribution costs for sending power one address away?
Did I SAY that ?
No.
I said that it was unfair for the homeowner to get PAID as though they were supplying all of that infrastructure (i.e. net metering, they get the same as the sum total of the grid leading up to their house.
I used the extension lead over the fence analogy to demonstrate my point.
Give them the wholesale price, plus their renewable certificates would be my fair assessment.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
All generators have governors and provide their share of frequency control.
Which these solar (and wind) do NOT provide...they harvest and put energy into the grid, not ancillary services and frequency control...you KNOW that.
As they displace traditional generation, these services get lumbered on fewer and fewer machines that have these governors that you speak of.
BTW, new CCGTs and others coming in have governors that do not respond to frequency, they simply provide power as well (and VARs), but no frequency response inherently until given an up command from system control, and the $$$ that come with it.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
Whether it has to do with your job security or not you always seem to shun anything new, progressive, different than what's in your comfort zone, or just about anything different from what's been done in the past.
I shun stupid stuff when it's pushed with an agenda rather than science and logic.
You may see that as "not progressive", but progressive should be based on something factual... I know that you deal mostly in what "feels" like it should be right, no matter how wrong it is in fact....like Ethanol produces NO CO when burned in an engine...someone is into the coolaid, and that's NOT progressive, it's sheeple.
Originally Posted By: turtlevette
It's disconcerting for me to see this from an intelligent person.
It's disconcerting seeing you have to manufacture my position so that you can strawman argue it away.
So you want small generators to get paid the same as your plant. Certificates dont mean anything to me. You'd have to explain that.
Solar does provide frequency regulation through their inverters as do all generators through a built in droop characteristic. I see your expertise is not in governors.
The rest of your post is complaints against me. I can't help you with that.
Solar does provide frequency regulation through their inverters as do all generators through a built in droop characteristic. I see your expertise is not in governors.
The rest of your post is complaints against me. I can't help you with that.
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