December 7th, 1941

[Benzadmiral]

Originally Posted By: Panzerman
. . . Exactly what were the Japanese thinking, because all they really did was poke a giant industrial country then leave. If they would have had transports and invaded Hawaii or kept resupplying and kept up bombing operations to obligated all United States naval strength including transports and facilities, but really, two bombing runs and gone. What was Germany thinking of declaring war with United States, again makes no sense. . . .

Barbara Tuchman's The March of Folly details it out as just that: folly, defined as policy of a government or ruling group that is contrary to national self-interest, and which was recognized as such at the time. See what Nick mentioned above, and Yamamoto's comment about "waking the sleeping giant [the U.S.]" -- he knew, because he'd spent time in the U.S., and had a good idea how America would react.

I think they never planned to occupy Hawaii. It was too long a supply line for them.

 

[bbhero]

I have a General who served in WW II at my facility. I need to do some more looking but I wonder if he's the Rear Admiral I have heard that lives in my retirement community. I am not sure.

That being said, I know this gentleman is a General for sure. I talked with him about serving in WW II. He served in both European and Southeast Asia theaters. He spoke about serving in Okinawa. This man is a special man. There just aren't too many WW II Generals around anymore.

I also have another special resident in my facility as well. This lady's husband served in a very high level position in the US government. I remember seeing a picture of her and her husband with George H. Bush in the oval office. It was signed by George H. Bush. I was like holy cow!! Well, I can't tell y'all anymore than that about their story. It would give away who it is I am writing about. But let me tell ya... it was VERY interesting indeed. Once in a lifetime type stuff. And I mean literally a once in a lifetime type event. Pretty cool. She's really a wonderful lady.

 

[mrsilv04]

Originally Posted By: racer12306
I become more disappointed each year that this seems to be a forgotten date. Google doesn't even post a doodle.


Don't ever rely on Google to ever do the right thing for the right reason. They're clueless when it comes to that.

 

[Wolf359]

I believe it was Henry Stimson that initiated the oil embargo's that were strangling Japan. The choice they had was to either pull back in China or risk all out war which they hoped the US would just sue for a truce, they never really had any thought that they'd be able to defeat the US. The MO of the Japanese was to declare war and then attack, however they were late in deciphering the message that they were suppose to declare war on the US so it ended up as a surprise attack instead of an attack just after war started. Nagumo was in charge of the attack at Pearl Harbor and many blame him for not ordering a 3rd strike to finish off the oil farms and repair facilities, that would have forced the US back to the mainland. He was considered too cautious and it got him again at Midway where he was in charge when they lost 4 carriers.

Hitler had hoped that by declaring war on the US, that would make the Japanese attack the Soviets and help out his attacks in the east, but they didn't do so. He had other reason also, the US was already helping Britain with lend lease etc. He went on for about an hour an half with his declaration of war speech to the Reichstag. About the only time he declared war on anyone, Barbarossa he just did it. So of course after Hitler declared war on the US, the US had to declare war on Germany, it wasn't the other way around.

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I will have to agree alot of it doesn't make sense. Exactly what were the Japanese thinking, because all they really did was poke a giant industrial country then leave. If they would have had transports and invaded Hawaii or kept resupplying and kept up bombing operations to obligated all United States naval strength including transports and facilities, but really, two bombing runs and gone. What was Germany thinking of declaring war with United States, again makes no sense. If the Japanese and Germans were really tight. Why wouldn't Japan attack Russia from the East and stop thier production outside of German bombing range. Too many weird, no sense maneuvers. I never heard a good answer yet. Japan could have also routed the British fleet for the Germans, again bringing American made no sense.


The interesting thing is, you are absolutely correct. Admiral Yamamoto knew attacking the US was a bad idea, that Japan didn't have the industrial base to maintain a long war against us. But the Emperor and upper echelons of the Empire wanted to get "Vengance" on the US for interfering. So he came up with the plan to attack Pearl, which was one of the few big weak points the US had. The aircraft carriers Shokaku, Zuikaku, and Hiryuu were ideal for this.

Pearl Harbor was a terrible tragedy indeed, but I have to admire the planning and execution of it by the IJN. They certainly were smart, and had the equipment for the job. It's hard to argue that at the beginning of the war, the US was not ready for a war with Japan, the IJN far outclassed what the US had in almost every way. Of course, that advantage disappeared once the US got the wheels of industry turning at top speed, thanks to efforts of shipyards like the New York Navy Yard, and Bath Iron Works.


It was a long war. Lots of it made sense to the Japanese. They were running out of oil that their war machine needed to continue operations. Attacking Pearl would stop the US from interfering in their take over of the Dutch east indies which was rich in oil. It's a long way from the Pacific coast to Japan. Right after Pearl, Japan also attacked many other areas. One of the worst that never really gets mentioned is how they bombed Clark airfield in the Philippines. Most of the planes were on the ground and MacArthur was in charge, the lost over 140 planes nine hours after MacArthur knew that Pearl had been attacked.

I wouldn't call the attack vengeance, it was basically fish or cut bait. Either the empire would grow or they would have to retreat. They chose to grow their empire.

Also keep in mind that prior to WWII, most wars were ended with treaties, like the treaty of versailles which ended WWI, it didn't really involve invading a country and taking it over completely like the allies did to Germany at the end of WWII although that was really Hitler's decision not to give up like Germany did in WWI. The Revolutionary war didn't have the US invading Britain, the British just gave up when it became too costly. I think that's what Japan was also hoping, they would be too far away and the US wouldn't have the stomach for it. Their plan didn't quite work out the way they had hoped, but I guess it made sense at the time to them.

 

[turtlevette]

Originally Posted By: Wolf359
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: Panzerman
I will have to agree alot of it doesn't make sense. Exactly what were the Japanese thinking, because all they really did was poke a giant industrial country then leave. If they would have had transports and invaded Hawaii or kept resupplying and kept up bombing operations to obligated all United States naval strength including transports and facilities, but really, two bombing runs and gone. What was Germany thinking of declaring war with United States, again makes no sense. If the Japanese and Germans were really tight. Why wouldn't Japan attack Russia from the East and stop thier production outside of German bombing range. Too many weird, no sense maneuvers. I never heard a good answer yet. Japan could have also routed the British fleet for the Germans, again bringing American made no sense.


The interesting thing is, you are absolutely correct. Admiral Yamamoto knew attacking the US was a bad idea, that Japan didn't have the industrial base to maintain a long war against us. But the Emperor and upper echelons of the Empire wanted to get "Vengance" on the US for interfering. So he came up with the plan to attack Pearl, which was one of the few big weak points the US had. The aircraft carriers Shokaku, Zuikaku, and Hiryuu were ideal for this.

Pearl Harbor was a terrible tragedy indeed, but I have to admire the planning and execution of it by the IJN. They certainly were smart, and had the equipment for the job. It's hard to argue that at the beginning of the war, the US was not ready for a war with Japan, the IJN far outclassed what the US had in almost every way. Of course, that advantage disappeared once the US got the wheels of industry turning at top speed, thanks to efforts of shipyards like the New York Navy Yard, and Bath Iron Works.


It was a long war. Lots of it made sense to the Japanese. They were running out of oil that their war machine needed to continue operations. Attacking Pearl would stop the US from interfering in their take over of the Dutch east indies which was rich in oil. It's a long way from the Pacific coast to Japan. Right after Pearl, Japan also attacked many other areas. One of the worst that never really gets mentioned is how they bombed Clark airfield in the Philippines. Most of the planes were on the ground and MacArthur was in charge, the lost over 140 planes nine hours after MacArthur knew that Pearl had been attacked.

I wouldn't call the attack vengeance, it was basically fish or cut bait. Either the empire would grow or they would have to retreat. They chose to grow their empire.

Also keep in mind that prior to WWII, most wars were ended with treaties, like the treaty of versailles which ended WWI, it didn't really involve invading a country and taking it over completely like the allies did to Germany at the end of WWII although that was really Hitler's decision not to give up like Germany did in WWI. The Revolutionary war didn't have the US invading Britain, the British just gave up when it became too costly. I think that's what Japan was also hoping, they would be too far away and the US wouldn't have the stomach for it. Their plan didn't quite work out the way they had hoped, but I guess it made sense at the time to them.


2 long winded posts of singing and dancing around calling cowards.... cowards. Right?

 

[CharlieBauer]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
I go to a few meetings every year to listen to the born again far right in Germany


You what?

 

[Wolf359]

Originally Posted By: turtlevette
2 long winded posts of singing and dancing around calling cowards.... cowards. Right?


There was no name calling. People seem kinda clueless these days about why things happened the way they happened. Mistakes were made. The rest is history.

 

[JetStar]

Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Can we save that stuff for another day...

I was a SSBN (Trident Submarine sailor) for 11 years. We used to pull into Ford Island when visiting Pearl. A lot of the old buildings on the island still had damage from the attack that day.

I remember being topside and rendering honors as we passed by battleship row. There was never a dry eye.
Always asking yourself "Am I doing it right?" "Am I honoring the young people who scarified so much that day?" "Am I making difference?" I always hoped the answer was yes.

We would moor right behind what was left of the USS Utah. The Navy preformed colors on that ship daily as it was never decommissioned. I remember pulling in there before the bridge to the main land and the two Museums (Missouri and the Air Museum). It was a pretty empty island with a bunch of history. We/I always felt different, maybe better about what I was doing when I was on Ford Island. At the time the air field was used by the locals for touch and goes. Now it is all grown over. That was 20 years ago.

There is a Banyan tree on the Island just off the pier of where the Utah lays. It is said to have been there since before the War and sailors over the years would "Coke and Joke" underneath it. I remember walking over there a few times to see it and enjoy a few "beverages" below it's carved up branches with my fellow Submariners.

We would always wonder if any of the brave souls who were there on Dec. 7th had hung out under that same tree.

So if you can and want to take the time today to remember those who were there please do. These were all VERY young people with hopes, dreams and families who gave up everything in hopes of doing the right thing.

A little light reading about the other side of the island that is usually forgotten.
Utah and Detroit


Thanks for sharing Mike, and thanks for your service.

 

[dave1251]

Today is a very important day to remember in my view. Please take a moment to remember and reflect.

 

[ls1mike]

Originally Posted By: JetStar

Thanks for sharing Mike, and thanks for your service.


One thing I wanted to share was about when I was making patrols. There were still a lot of WWII Sub vets and Pearl Harbor survivors around and they would routinely come for tours or even short underways.

I would always love talking to these guys and shaking their hands. Their stories were great and they would beam with pride when they would see how proud you were to show of your "boat". They loved how much things had changed but also stayed the same.

More than one occasion when these men were telling stories you could, or as least it seemed, see the age drain right out of their eyes. They stood a little straighter, talked a little louder and were happy to see young guys carrying on the traditions of the Navy and the Submarine force.

It was always a privilege to give these men and women a tour. Was one of my favorite parts of the job and you almost always got a teary eyed hug at end.

 

[John_Conrad]

Thank you for sharing your stories mike, that is great stuff. I took a "tour" on google earth pro yesterday as i do every year and visit pearl harbor and all the surrounding area to pay tribute and reflect on the past. I am amazed at the images and what can be seen from them. Once again thanks for your service and stories. Good day and seasons greetings.

jc

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
I go to a few meetings every year to listen to the born again far right in Germany


You what?


The so called 'born again far right in Germany' are those people who oppose Merkels Islamization of their country. Ultrafan UK is spouting nonsense again.

I wonder if he is aware of the number of RAPES being committed in Sweden, Germany etc... by these 'poor migrants' (GOOGLE it).

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: ls1mike
Originally Posted By: JetStar

Thanks for sharing Mike, and thanks for your service.


One thing I wanted to share was about when I was making patrols. There were still a lot of WWII Sub vets and Pearl Harbor survivors around and they would routinely come for tours or even short underways.

I would always love talking to these guys and shaking their hands. Their stories were great and they would beam with pride when they would see how proud you were to show of your "boat". They loved how much things had changed but also stayed the same.

More than one occasion when these men were telling stories you could, or as least it seemed, see the age drain right out of their eyes. They stood a little straighter, talked a little louder and were happy to see young guys carrying on the traditions of the Navy and the Submarine force.

It was always a privilege to give these men and women a tour. Was one of my favorite parts of the job and you almost always got a teary eyed hug at end.

 

[Benzadmiral]

Originally Posted By: pbm
Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
I go to a few meetings every year to listen to the born again far right in Germany


You what?


The so called 'born again far right in Germany' are those people who oppose Merkels Islamization of their country. Ultrafan UK is spouting nonsense again.

I wonder if he is aware of the number of RAPES being committed in Sweden, Germany etc... by these 'poor migrants' (GOOGLE it).

Or better yet, use Ixquick or another search engine. "Goggle" knows enough about us now. And they may very well be stooping to censoring search results they don't approve of.

 

[DoubleWasp]

I didn't believe it at first, but it does look like there are in fact a lot of tangible actions being taken to have stories about refugee crimes edited or removed from the internet and media.

 

[pbm]

Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
I didn't believe it at first, but it does look like there are in fact a lot of tangible actions being taken to have stories about refugee crimes edited or removed from the internet and media.


The TRUTH hurts the leftist AGENDA.....

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: KrisZ
It was a historic, tragic and pivotal point in history, but as a nation, US should have never taken that bait.


Huh? They declared war on us, Germany did so about a week later...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: John_Conrad
agree with astro14, over 1100 young men alone died on the arizona. this was not bait, this was japan's act of war on the u.s. their "official' method of declaration via teletype was nothing but a cowardly way of informing us just hours prior to the attack and we never really got "it".


I don't agree with the "Cowardly" assessment. It was a massive blunder more or less. Adm. Yamamoto (the key planner) was horrified that United States wasn't officially declared war on in time knowing it would only create more outrage and galvanize the American public even more so...

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
There have been several historical books relating how multinational corporations & financiers loaned money to & built plants in early 1930s Nazi Germany-not sure anyone could have predicted the monster that Hitler would become. We also were quite well aware that war was inevitable, our factories were switching to war materiel long before 12/7/41. That doesn't excuse the cowardly attack by Axis Japan-it was a miracle our aircraft carriers weren't there.


It's very complicated. But one of the factors that led to Hitler in power was the economic collapse of 1929 which drastically effected the U.S. economy and a complex relationship, in which the U.S. was gradually attempting to moderate the the harsh Versailles penalties and normalize and stabilize Germany's economy. After the Crash there were no more willing lenders and the French began pressing the German gov't ever harder and mainstream German politicians would increasingly become marginalized and threatened by the various militias rooted in the Freikorp that ultimately opened the door for the Nazis...