Michelin Pilot Sport AS3+ or Continental DWS06 ?

[NissanMaxima]

Hi Edyvw: Sure. Understood. I'm north of you in Denver! How is your snow today?

We mainly use the car for around town. We don't really go skiing up in the mountains but an occasional trip for sledding or tubing would be nice this season. This has been a real dilemma for me. We have "gotten by" for over a decade now with all season tires but it hasn't been fun and we don't have AWD on the car. We take it slow and easy on the roads and that helps, but it is not ideal. I've never wanted to invest in a second set of snow tires since probably 90+% of the winter I would be grinding off good rubber on dry roads! Plus, I don't think many folks around here even use a second set of snow tires - be that right or wrong. As you know, snow around here is not too frequent and within a few days when the sun pops out, it warms up enough at our elevation that you wouldn't even know it snowed a few days ago! However, that one, two or three day stretch when the snow is around can make driving miserable and even dangerous and I've never been impressed with CDOT plow efforts. I see too many cars off in the ditch around here.

Hope this helps.

PS I just talked with TireRack and was alerted I will need a set of four tire pressure sensing stems at $56 each. They say no shop will allow the car to leave with just regular stems on the wheels since the TPS system would be deactivated - plus I'm not sure that is a good idea anyway. Looks like the second set of snow tire option could easily be a $1k investment here. Ouch.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
1. If I decide based on budget reasons to just stick with the best all season or all weather (snowflake) tire, what is my very best choice if I really want to stick with the W rated tire based on what Toyota told me? Are the DWS06 still a decent (albeit not as good as 3 season plus snow tire option) choice?

Best for what? Real snow, or the rest of the time?


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
2. I read on Tire Rack about using a smaller wheel diameter for snow tire use. Their explanation about why to do this didn't make much sense to me. My stock OEM alloy rims are 17". Should I stick with another set of 17" rims or step down a size?

If you go for a smaller rim and keep the tire's overall diameter the same, you'll end up with a thicker sidewall. The rim will be more resilient, all else equal, and there'll be more cushioning from the tire, so you're less likely to get pothole damage. The mass will be closer to the center of the wheel, so there'll be less rotational inertia for better MPG, braking, acceleration, and traction on rough surfaces. Ride quality and noise will be better, too (again, all else equal). It's just better all around.

Go for the absolute smallest wheel that'll fit on your car. Pick the cheapest model that has the right offset and isn't insanely heavy (Tire Rack shows wheel weights). Then, for winter tires, pick the narrowest tire that'll fit on the rim and preserve the stock overall diameter.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
3. What does the board think about studded snow tires? I read an article on TireRack and they say studded tires really don't offer much of an advantage over non-studded tires but I can't help but thinking the studs would be really good for icy roads - we get a mix of snow and icy roads here for sure. I also wonder if studded tires might actually last longer as you have the studs in contact with the road vs. all rubber.

Studs are bad unless you never ever drive on asphalt.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
4. Does the board have a consensus on a three season tire for me if I go this route? Should I stick with the W rated Cont. DWS? I do need to be sure whatever 3 season tire I have will at least suffice in case I put the snow tires on late, or take them off early and there is a storm.

Michelin Pilot Sport AS3 or AS3+. No sense in going for anything but the best in a tire.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
5. How many miles do snow tires or studded snow tires usually last? I figure we will put about 4k miles per winter season. Can I expect at least 12k miles out of good snow tires or studded snow tires which would be three season? I understand once the first few 32nds of tread are removed from a snow tire, the traction drops dramatically.

Depends on more factors than are worth listing here.

If you switch to your winter set as late as possible, and switch back as early as possible, you'll be replacing tires at about the same rate as if you just had one set all year. The more your run your winters in warm conditions and on dry asphalt, the faster they'll wear.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
6. Good to excellent snow or studded snow tire for me? Do I need to look for W rated again?

No. But you should get the highest speed rating you can find, just because the tire will be better constructed.

 

[d00df00d]

Here you go.

This wheel: http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/WheelClos...p;autoModClar=S

And this tire: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?...romCompare1=yes

 

[NissanMaxima]

Thanks: Regarding my all season tire, I was asking about best choice for running one tire, year round, that would have an emphasized performance in snow. I talked with TireRack and they don't have any tires in my size with the snowflake one member suggested.

Regarding snow tires dOOdfood, TireRack said I could go with 16" painted alloy wheels, which were a few bucks more than plain Jane steel, and they suggested Blizzak WS80 in 205 55-16 91H. Is that a good choice? They said don't worry about stepping down from my OEM 215 width to the 205 since they said less contact area is better for snow - which baffles me.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Thanks: Regarding my all season tire, I was asking about best choice for running one tire, year round, that would have an emphasized performance in snow. I talked with TireRack and they don't have any tires in my size with the snowflake one member suggested.

Can't help you with that, unfortunately. Maybe someone else can chime in.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Regarding snow tires dOOdfood, TireRack said I could go with 16" painted alloy wheels, which were a few bucks more than plain Jane steel, and they suggested Blizzak WS80 in 205 55-16 91H. Is that a good choice?

Yes. Alloys will be much lighter than steel, so if they're only a few bucks more, then they're worth it.

But the combo I linked is better. :] Less mass, smaller rims, better tires.


Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
They said don't worry about stepping down from my OEM 215 width to the 205 since they said less contact area is better for snow - which baffles me.

Correct.

So this is a bit of an oversimplification, but it's a decent rule of thumb. Any time there's something on the road that your tires have to punch through (e.g. rain or snow), narrower is usually better because it concentrates your vehicle's weight in a smaller area.

 

[NissanMaxima]

Thanks: I was going to ask about the Michelin X Ice after reading about it. It seems some folks feel the Blizzaks wear really fast and don't have a tread wear mileage warranty whereas the Michelins do have a 40k warranty. And they are on sale at Tire Rack.

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Thanks: Regarding my all season tire, I was asking about best choice for running one tire, year round, that would have an emphasized performance in snow. I talked with TireRack and they don't have any tires in my size with the snowflake one member suggested.



One tire for all-year use that does really well in snow? I'd suggest the Toyo Celsius. Tire Rack doesn't sell Toyo AFAIK, but you should be able to find numerous tire stores in Denver that do.

IMO, Tire rack is great resource for researching tires, But I prefer to deal with local brick and mortar stores for actual purchases. I've had enough defective tires over the years, that the last thing I want to do is to try and deal with an online retailer that I can't just drive to, to get the issue resolved.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: NissanMaxima
Thanks: I was going to ask about the Michelin X Ice after reading about it. It seems some folks feel the Blizzaks wear really fast and don't have a tread wear mileage warranty whereas the Michelins do have a 40k warranty. And they are on sale at Tire Rack.

Forget 40K warranty, that is according to Michelin 2/32. When you hit 6/32 you are done with winter tires since any deep snow or slush performance after that is non-existent.
Here is my take.
1. get separate set of wheels and tires if you plan to keep that car and if you are staying in CO. That is cheapest option. You will run winter tires 5-6 months, save A/S tires from wearing out, run A/S 5-6 months, save winter tires from wearing out. I run separate wheels and tires on both cars.
2. What tire to get?
A. Michelin X-ice Xi3 is VERY good tire in dry, wet and ice. It will feel most like A/S tire (a good A/S tire) in dry and wet. In ice, it is probably best tire out there. However, there are numerous reports and I talked to some skiers who have them, that they seriously underperform in anything over 5-6in of snow or slush. It will get you where you going, and you get typical Michelin's, easy to balance etc.
b. Blizzak WS-80 is what you would think of hardcore winter tire. It will last 20K before it is done, maybe 25K, but you DO NOT anyway want to run winter tire longer, because anything deeper then 4in when tire is 5/32 becomes real problem. Now, WS-80 is tire that will go through slush and deep snow easy, ice etc. Dry? It will be more mushy, much more then Michelin.
c. Continental Wintercontact SI is great tire. It has new compound that Continental brought from Europe, and Europe is biggest market for winter tires, and Continental is by far number 1. there. Bridgestone and Michelin's are just average. It has very good performance in dry and wet, but good deep snow and ice too.
d. Nokian Hakka. R2 is definiately most hardcore winter tire of these, but dry performance suffers a lot.

2. Why winter tires and not A/S or all weather like Toyo Celsisus?
While with A/S or all weather tires you can move forward, braking is always discipline where you want max. performance. If you buy winter tires you will quickly learn that your life does not anymore depends on weather. Foot of snow? Yes, you go to restaurant with wife, and you enjoy scenery without sweating wether you will blew intersection stop sign. Breckenridge? Why not, regardless that weatherman said it might snow. "It might snow" in the Rockies turns into full blown blizzard very fast, and you want to be ready. So you are in Breckenridge and there is a blizzard. Keep in mind that I-70 then is like 8hrs trip between Breckenridge and Denver because all people on A/S tires and all wether tires not being able to brake going downhill. So you need option. Sure, you can go Breckenridge to Fairplay and then HWY 285 East. BUT, ONLY way you gonna cross Hoosier pass during serious snow storm is on real winter tires.

So do not overthink this. Especially when it comes to these Toyo Celsius, Nokian WRG3 or whatever gibberish. Once s... hits the fan in the Rockies, those tires will not work! Maybe you will move forward slowly in something up to 6in (keep in mind in the Rockies 6in sometimes falls in one hour), but you are actually then causing traffic, etc. and creating actually dangerous conditions for other people. Saw numerous cars crashed going downhill on these passes thinking they climbed and that is what matters. What matters in winter is to be ABLE TO STOP!
Now, you can be like a lot of people and on a first site of clouds stay at home, but not sure you wanna do that in CO, because Rockies look beautiful in snow!

 

[02SE]

Originally Posted By: edyvw


So do not overthink this. Especially when it comes to these Toyo Celsius, Nokian WRG3 or whatever gibberish. Once s... hits the fan in the Rockies, those tires will not work! Maybe you will move forward slowly in something up to 6in (keep in mind in the Rockies 6in sometimes falls in one hour), but you are actually then causing traffic, etc. and creating actually dangerous conditions for other people. Saw numerous cars crashed going downhill on these passes thinking they climbed and that is what matters. What matters in winter is to be ABLE TO STOP!
Now, you can be like a lot of people and on a first site of clouds stay at home, but not sure you wanna do that in CO, because Rockies look beautiful in snow!


I'm guessing from your reply that you never have driven with the Toyo Celsius tire. I have. I live where the average annual snowfall is 500", just a few miles away. I know snow driving with all of it's varying conditions. Suffice it to say the Toyo Celsius works far better than your average All Season tire. I'd say it's snow performance is comparable to a winter performance tire like the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2.

So not quite as good as the best like say the Blizzak WS80, or Michelin Xi3. But far better then the average A/S tire, and they can be run year round without wearing away very fast, like dedicated winter tires.

They are a good option for someone that doesn't want two sets of specialized tires.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
Originally Posted By: edyvw


So do not overthink this. Especially when it comes to these Toyo Celsius, Nokian WRG3 or whatever gibberish. Once s... hits the fan in the Rockies, those tires will not work! Maybe you will move forward slowly in something up to 6in (keep in mind in the Rockies 6in sometimes falls in one hour), but you are actually then causing traffic, etc. and creating actually dangerous conditions for other people. Saw numerous cars crashed going downhill on these passes thinking they climbed and that is what matters. What matters in winter is to be ABLE TO STOP!
Now, you can be like a lot of people and on a first site of clouds stay at home, but not sure you wanna do that in CO, because Rockies look beautiful in snow!


I'm guessing from your reply that you never have driven with the Toyo Celsius tire. I have. I live where the average annual snowfall is 500", just a few miles away. I know snow driving with all of it's varying conditions. Suffice it to say the Toyo Celsius works far better than your average All Season tire. I'd say it's snow performance is comparable to a winter performance tire like the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2.

So not quite as good as the best like say the Blizzak WS80, or Michelin Xi3. But far better then the average A/S tire, and they can be run year round without wearing away very fast, like dedicated winter tires.

They are a good option for someone that doesn't want two sets of specialized tires.

Absolutely they are better then A/S tire in snow.
However, for me A/S tire is the biggest scam by tire industry. Not good in winter, not good in summer. Considering I know how tires work, better winter performance means worse summer performance, so it comes to same, better then average A/S tire in winter, worse in summer.
So they are worse then winter tire in winter, but also worse then A/S tire in summer. Kind of at square one.
Tire designed for people to get by, nothing else.

 

[02SE]

You have your opinion, but it's based on apparently no experience with the tires I suggested. I'm telling you that they are nearly as good as some of the best winter tires in winter, and also good in summer, too. My sister has had a set on her FWD car for over a year. They do have a 60k mile teadwear warranty.

Of course they aren't comparable to a Michelin PSS in summer, but they will also last 2-3 times longer. A Corolla like the OP's is not a performance car. Clearly he's not going to be pushing the limits of vehicle dynamics, or he would be driving a more performance oriented car.

Not everyone has the money to spend on the BEST tires for every Season. Then there are those that do have the money, but they don't want to spend it on a specific tire for every weather and road condition they might encounter. So they compromise.

Which leads to my final thought: ALL tires are a compromise. You just have to decide what compromises are acceptable for you.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: 02SE
You have your opinion, but it's based on apparently no experience with the tires I suggested. I'm telling you that they are nearly as good as some of the best winter tires in winter, and also good in summer, too. My sister has had a set on her FWD car for over a year. They do have a 60k mile teadwear warranty.

Of course they aren't comparable to a Michelin PSS in summer, but they will also last 2-3 times longer. A Corolla like the OP's is not a performance car. Clearly he's not going to be pushing the limits of vehicle dynamics, or he would be driving a more performance oriented car.

Not everyone has the money to spend on the BEST tires for every Season. Then there are those that do have the money, but they don't want to spend it on a specific tire for every weather and road condition they might encounter. So they compromise.

Which leads to my final thought: ALL tires are a compromise. You just have to decide what compromises are acceptable for you.

First of all they are not comparable to ANY summer tire of ANY reputable manufacturer. They are NOT comparable to DWS06, they are not comparable to any A/S Michelin tire, or Bridgestone tire in Summer. They will have longer braking distance, they will handle worse etc. Who give a s... whether they last 60K. Tire that lasts 60K is not a tire, it is piece of plastic.
It is not capable to winter tires because its compund would not last 60K if it had comparable compound. Maybe it would move forward like PA2, but it will not stop like PA2.
By the way, what does it matter if it is Corolla? Corolla has to stop from 60 same like Porsche 911, BMW M3 or Geo Metro. And ONLY thing that is making contact with road regardless of a car, is a rubber.
Yes, I have drive much better all weather tires then Celsius, i worked as test driver and I know one thing, there is no such thing as all weather tire. I personally would never put my kid in car with those tires in weather right now in Colo. Springs which is -5f, with one inch of snow over iced road. For me, when I have my baby in a car, every foot of braking distance counts, and I know, Toyo Celsius is not going to stop nowhere near Michelin Xi3, Continental SI, Bridgestone Blizzak etc. etc.
But more basic questions is: Toyo is so advanced that they figured it out, while these stupid engineers from Michelin, Bridgestone, Continental etc. still did not? Base don your post, I do not expect anything less then Toyo being number one rubber company by the end of 2017, because they obviously figured out question that exists since Good Year introduced tire: how to do good in all weather conditions.
Congratulations!

 

[edyvw]

By the way here is how TOYO's real winter tires compare to other winter tires.
You want to tell us that Toyo has better winter compound for Celsius then for real winter tire?
TOYO Snowprox S953
The reason why I get all work up when it comes to these claims: All weather is same, or even better, he drives Corolla (like he leaves his head in the house if he drives small car) is that actually someone might take your advice.

 

[02SE]

OP, buy the tires you want.

Clearly, someone desperately wants to argue, and attribute things to me which I haven't said..

It's not worth my time.

 

[d00df00d]

[deleted]

 

[d00df00d]

Yeah, there was no need for this to get contentious. 02SE, you made your recommendation in good faith, based on OP's request. edyvw and I might disagree with it, but there's no need for anyone to make you feel put-upon.

Here's how I see it:

Could an all-season/all-weather tire provide traction that would blow away most drivers in all conditions? Absolutely. That's the experience I had with the old Continental ContiExtremeContact and Bridgestone Potenza RE960AS Pole Position on my first car.

At the same time, we seem to agree that such a tire will never be as good as the best specialized tires in any given season. That's doubly true when the all-season/all-weather tire in question is a long-lasting model from a more budget-conscious brand.

So really, the main disagreement here is about how important all of this is. Are the advantages of a good specialized tire irrelevant if you drive a normal car like a normal person? Arguably they're less relevant. Kind of like your airbag and your seatbelt, if we're honest. You have those not because they're always useful, but because you only need to crash once for it to hurt. Good tires are the same -- even if you ignore all the other benefits besides safety (confidence, construction quality, directional stability, consistency, feel, NVH, etc.).

On price: Sure, the best tires are expensive. But the thing to look at isn't the price tag; it's the price difference between the best tire and a mediocre one. Try averaging that out over the amount of time you'll own your tires, and see if it still looks so big. Then, put it next to the value of your car, your life, and the lives of those around you, and watch it disappear. If you absolutely, positively cannot afford it, then okay. But if you're that bad off, you probably have bigger fish to fry.

 

[edyvw]

There are numerous videos on youtube comparing all season and all weather tires to winter tires in braking, handling etc.
Apparently, youtube became go to for people to get convinced about difference.
One thing I will tell you, with BEST all season tire OP will not go over a lot of passes in CO during snow storm. Last year we had 64 car pile up on I70 eastbound (going down mountain) precisely because people think they can get by. The Colorado State Congress took that issue and some lawmakers wanted to warrant winter tires in the mountains. That failed because all those people who get worked up over government telling them what to do (same people who think they can tell Starbucks what color of cups should be). They wanted to increase fines if you are in accident and you caused it and no winter tires. That failed too. So they just appropriated money for a study about winter tires and I70.
But even if 20ft braking distance is irrelevant to drivers, problem is that they are danger to others. I was saying this before, cars that are first in ditch during slippery roads here are Trucks, Subarus and JEEP's. Truck drivers think they just can go through anything, Subaru drivers think that reputation of a car is there because it is soo good in snow, and JEEP drivers usually do not understand limitations of A/T tires in slippery conditions. What is common denominator there? A/S/ and A/T tires.
I told this my wife. If someone hits me from the back because they cannot stop fast enough, or runs red light because they cannot stop (could happen numerous times, but it did not because I take a look twice even though it is green because I know what kind of tires people drive on) I would sue their a.. to the [censored]. Then they might rethink whether tire is expensive or not.
One thing is for sure. They better keep distance behind Blizzaks.

 

[Rand]

So edyvw.. a question which tire do you run when its 65F in the day and 28F at night?

Or am I supposed to switch tires twice a day

Honestly if you have new decent brand name all seasons here you are better off than 70% of the drivers.. only 5% or so here even use winter tires. maybe 25% have 4/32 or less tread sometimes 3-4 different brands and models on same car.

You just seem to poop out giant blocks of argument and think everyone should agree with your exactly.

Next up I should put michelin PSS on a dodge ram because it brakes 10ft better??

 

[d00df00d]

Spring, Summer, Fall: Good summer tire or non-winter-oriented all-season tire
Winter: Winter tire or dedicated snow/ice tire

Simple as that.

 

[edyvw]

Originally Posted By: Rand
So edyvw.. a question which tire do you run when its 65F in the day and 28F at night?

Or am I supposed to switch tires twice a day

Honestly if you have new decent brand name all seasons here you are better off than 70% of the drivers.. only 5% or so here even use winter tires. maybe 25% have 4/32 or less tread sometimes 3-4 different brands and models on same car.

You just seem to poop out giant blocks of argument and think everyone should agree with your exactly.

Next up I should put michelin PSS on a dodge ram because it brakes 10ft better??

Colorado is like that, you have 70 during the day, 30 during the night, or 70 during the day, and then suddenly 0 during the night.
Once first November hits that is it, winter tires are on until at least mid April.
Countries that have fewer deaths then ours mandate winter tires by law, and have also changing climate.
I found ti interesting that some people I know change cars so they could not get "Stuck" just so they do not buy two sets of tires. They are willing to have unnecessary payment, got rid of got car, because they wanted AWD so they are "safe" during winter. On question about braking they behave like I am talking Chinese.
But then, tires and drivers in this country were always somehow arbitrary discipline, same like driving in left lane.
People behave like their presence on the road is privilege to all of us. Last week we had first major storm here that warranted snow plows on the streets, and apparently drivers in Colorado got surprised with snow in December.
As for PSS, not sure anything helps RAM with braking!