Does maker's oil prescription really maters?

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Because this was an earlier engine, I'd stay with the 5W-40. There are a bunch to consider. Split the difference and look for a 12.5 cSt, or above
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Solomonic judgment. In fact, it's what I've done.
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There's not earlier or later: it's exactly the SAME engine, same oil pump, same piston rings...

But, in any case. I didn't wanna tell you my own problem. I was proposing only an exemple to explain that, perhaps... automakers' specifications not always are the BEST option.

Or, in other words: there're a lot of information that is hidden to owners by oil and car companies. In this case: HTHS of each oil, and HTHS minimum for each engine and duty. With this information, that should be compulsory, we could choose oil without the need for examining guts of birds (all of we're doing is stablish conjectures, we don't have the means to be able to do more).

But oil and car industries are too powerfull (and governments too weak) at one side and another of the Atlantic Ocean (and Pacific, also).
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here in USA thinner oils are being pushed! as long as the engine runs until the warranty is gone thats OK, after that its your problem $$$$$
 
Originally Posted By: Esmolante
Solomonic judgment. In fact, it's what I've done.
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There's not earlier or later: it's exactly the SAME engine, same oil pump, same piston rings...

But, in any case. I didn't wanna tell you my own problem. I was proposing only an exemple to explain that, perhaps... automakers' specifications not always are the BEST option.

Or, in other words: there're a lot of information that is hidden to owners by oil and car companies. In this case: HTHS of each oil, and HTHS minimum for each engine and duty. With this information, that should be compulsory, we could choose oil without the need for examining guts of birds (all of we're doing is stablish conjectures, we don't have the means to be able to do more).

But oil and car industries are too powerfull (and governments too weak) at one side and another of the Atlantic Ocean (and Pacific, also).
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Well, yes and no... The fact that that engine runs reliably on modern 10W-30 is one data point. The OM recommendation for your older incarnation is another.

And sorry, you can't say it's exactly the same. May be...

But you'd have to do an exhaustive part number comparison. All they have to do is cut a cam gear slightly differently to permanently change the timing and it would not be obvious. Same for how far they mill the head during MFG. They don't have to change pistons, rings, or anything else to make it run different (lower temps, less compression, etc.).

Or maybe they just ordered 0.5mm thicker head gaskets. There are a lot of ways to take stress out of an engine ... Since they had to make it compatible with the smog equipment, we don't really know what subtle changes were made ...

And, modern 10W-30 HDEOs have gotten better since 2011. So maybe their testing said a slightly lower cylinder temp and this oil could work OK.

Or, are both of these versions turbo'd to the same boost with the same thermostats, etc?

Need more data to make that final determination.

And I have some experience with Fiat/Iveco diesels (worked on Hesston Tractors). They are tough engines. We added pump pressure and turbo'd non-T motors to help them get up vineyard hills. Had to re-core the radiators to shed the heat, but they are still running years later w/o hic-up
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I'm not doubting your position, but I have a strong feeling there is something else beside collusion and lack of Gov't oversight ... And EU Gov't don't seem to have any problem muzzling the press in that eastern version of your State. So it's selective.

How long was VW scamming the EU car authorities when they thought they could do it over here... Same for the other auto makers. We know Peugeot had issues...

We have a lot of Iveco trucks running around over here. I hope Fiat did not do anything stupid like VW ...
 
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Oh, my bad. Should have read more carefully. Didn't know FIAT specified WR P.E for Ducato range. My thought were P.E was developed along for 2.0 jtdm with different valvetrain.

We always used Urania oils (either low or full SAPS depending on DPF), after all it's a IVECO engine, so why not use what they specified?
Either way I'd personally use C3 over C2 in this particular case.
 
The higher HTHS oil will always be the safer choice.
It will cost you some fuel but probably no more than 2-3%.
Are you inclined to take the risks that may be inherent in a thinner oil or do you want to play it safe? Personally, especially with a diesel, I'd rather err on the side of caution. We also don't really know what the optimum HTHS number might be. We can only make conjectures based upon a very limited set of data. The manufacturer does know, but as you note, they aren't telling us.
I had no idea that you could get any synthetic oil as cheaply as you've quoted in Spain.
Sounds really reasonable for the certs met.
 
@chrisri: Great idea!
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I've been having a look at OM and IVECO recommends indeed a Petronas Urania Daily 5W30 for their non-DPF Dailys.
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http://flcf.onion.it/commonfile/ENG/pdf/1345_stec_ENG.pdf
Viscosity at 100ºC: 10,4cSt. So, it's a very similar oil to Selenia WR PE.

So... Why FIAT prescribed a 15cSt oil in Ducato 2006-2010 and IVECO a 10cSt oil in Daily 2006-2010? With exactly the same engines? (it's also valid for 3.0)

And which is the most suitable?

It's funny, 'cose If I had used the Urania Daily in my Ducato, my guarantee would be voided! It doesn't make any sense at all...

I hope they had been more serious designing and producing the engine, than recommending oils for that engine.
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Aside from the obvious warranty concern, the OM oil spec is only really a guide. They don't know your climate or driving habits so it's up to you to pick wisely.
Why not look for an oil who's KV40 & KV100 & HTHS are exactly halfway between the two oils in the manual - you split the difference and get the best of both worlds
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@fdcg27: Both agree with that, fuel saving at increased wear expenses isn't worth it.

And, if in doubt, higher HTHS it's the safest option. A wise advise.
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As I told you before, my option was a 5W30, 11.6cSt, C3 --> HTHS>3.5cP. In Spanish, there's a saying: "prefiero curarme en salud", that translated, it would be something like "I prefer to treat me while being healthy".

It's only for the pleasure of talking with friends
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and expose that problem: Owner's Manuals are not an undeniable truth, as usually people said.

Sadly, it's not so easy as saying "HTHS, the higher, the better". The better option it's a compromise: a HTHS high enough to cover 99.99% of times, and viscosity as low as it is possible for maximizing oil flow in critical components (crankshaft bearings...).

If we plot a graph viscosity-wear, there's a point in which viscosity produces a minimum wear. That's the sweet spot that we're searching for.

But, of course, if in doubt, better go too far with viscosity/HTHS, than short.
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Hi,
I can't answer why FIATs recommendations differs from IVECOs. But that hardly uncommon. FIATs 1.9 JTDM is specified for use of WR 5w40. GM recommended Dexos 2, which is a 5w30 C3 oil.
Volvo/Ford/PSA shared engine, but recommendations differed.

Only speculating here but.. Engines designed around lower HT-HS viscosity can operate with lubricants with higher HTHS. Not the opposite. FIAT and IVECO diesels are strong, they are not particularly fussy about oils.

I'm currently using Urania Fe Ls 5w30, a E6 oil in my 1.9 16v, and in PSA 1.6 8v hdi. Hdi is specified for c2 oils, it doesn't mind thicker oil one bit.
 
@BrocLuno: AFAIK, it's exactly the same engine. The same references for all pieces, but I couldn't swear to it (I haven't compared all parts, one by one).

I guess the answer it's more related to fashion or inertia than complex mechanical requirements, but it's only a hunch. Anyway, well reasoned.
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What I don't find so well reasoned is "EU Gov't don't seem to have any problem muzzling the press in that eastern version of your State."

Muzzle the press? Mmm. I'm not fluent in English, but a muzzle is...

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In Spanish exist the same idiom "amordazar a la prensa", muzzle the press. Seriously, do you think in the European Union governments can or could muzzle the press???

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It's absolutely off-topic, but seems very interesting commenting this sample of chauvinism (qué manía de creerse el ombligo del mundo!). It's a personal perception or it's a widespread idea in USA about Europe? That is what usamerican media said of us, that here press freedom is endangered by governments?
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HAHAHAHAHA. MUAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

And do you think there are in USA such a thing as free press?
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Actually, is the opposite. Governments are terrified of mass media, because if they want, they could take away thousands of votes and knock down a party with an adverse campaign. And governments are not able to do anything about that. Medias don't belong to governments (unless public TV channels), medias belong to big corporate conglomerates (banks, telcos...), who use that medias to defend their own interest (opinion makers it's the English idiom?).

And journalists must submit to that goal, that corporate interest of the owners (self-censorship)...or get fired. El patrón manda, in Spanish. Boss give the orders. And that's valid for you in your work, and the same for a journalist in any newspaper or TV channel.

I'm speaking of Europe, of USA and the rest of the world. If you have money to publish a newspaper or broadcast a radio or TV channel, you can decide what and how news, information, is told. And if you don't have, you can't.
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Your opinions, your interest are invisible.

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Returning to oils. I don't know API, but ACEA only publish its specifications, without further verification. Testing correspond to blenders, normaly oil companies, the most ethical corporate sector in the world.
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If Shell, verbi gratiae, assert Helix Ultra fulfill ACEA C3 spec., we have to trust in them, because we, citoyens, don't have de means to verify if that statement is true. I suggest that State must control that statement is true, with independent tests (the same with food, medicines or any other product, cars, for example, since you mention the VW scandal). It's my opinion, and you don't agree with them. I ask you, then: Do you think that there's something as the "right to lie", and is included in the economic freedom?
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Originally Posted By: chrisri
Hi,
But that hardly uncommon.
Exactly!

That's what I was trying to said, there are a lot of examples of the same engine, and differents oil specs.


Originally Posted By: chrisri
Engines designed around lower HT-HS viscosity can operate with lubricants with higher HTHS. Not the opposite.


We're again in accord. But the point is to find the optimum!
 
Originally Posted By: Olas
Aside from the obvious warranty concern, the OM oil spec is only really a guide. They don't know your climate or driving habits so it's up to you to pick wisely.
Why not look for an oil who's KV40 & KV100 & HTHS are exactly halfway between the two oils in the manual - you split the difference and get the best of both worlds
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Hi, Olas. It's more or less what I've done, a thick 5W30 C3 with HTHS>3.5cP.

But it's not me, makers are the first ones to consider that spec. as the Holy Truth.
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HOW WE DARE, HUMBLE DRIVERS, TO QUESTION IT? Unbelievers! Sinners!!!
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Originally Posted By: Esmolante
@BrocLuno: AFAIK, it's exactly the same engine. The same references for all pieces, but I couldn't swear to it (I haven't compared all parts, one by one).

What I don't find so well reasoned is "EU Gov't don't seem to have any problem muzzling the press in that eastern version of your State."

Muzzle the press? Mmm. I'm not fluent in English, but a muzzle is...



By Eastern EU Governments I meant Hungary, Chech Republic, maybe Austria where right wing governments seems to be following the Turkish example.

I know Western EU Governments like Spain are a lot more open to comment. They may not like what's being said, but it gets said.

In Victor Orban's world, maybe not so much ... And I dunno where Poland is on this, but they have shut a few news outlets lately.

I agree that much of the USA Press depends on what the Governments "decide" to share. But we have bloggers and Facebook fake news and such to keep us happy in the meantime
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As far as your oil dilemma, I think you are threading a reasonable path. Stay above 3.5 and buy good oil, you should be fine
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Have you considered by-pass filtration too ...
 
I would agree with Brocluno on oil recommendation, C3 oil in 5w30. What's your usual OCI? Do you use the van for commercial purposes?

BrocLuno, none of the above mentioned countries are Eastern Europe, they are Central Europe! Ukraine, Bulgaria, etc. are eastern Europe.

Nothing happened in Hungary, CZ, and especially Austria. You can be assured human rights (as the press) are at least on the same level as in USA.

Simply, people are fed up with liberal propaganda and liberal politics destroying their communities.
 
Esmolante,

Everyone who has ever worked in the engine oil business has at some point asked themselves the question 'What's the best oil?'. We're usually educated people so we do all the right things to find THE answer. We read books. We read SAE papers. We try and figure out the intricacies of the internal combustion engine (particularly how the ring pack works and what the PCV system actually does as opposed to what it's supposed to do) We spend ages talking to people with grey hair who you think might know the answer. Some of us even spend our best years fannying around in the lab, blending up oils, running them on engine tests and trying to make sense of the results. We might, if God truly hates us, even end up being responsible for some of those oils that real people buy to put in real engines!

And after all that effort, I guarantee that you still find it nigh on impossible to answer the question, 'What is the best oil?'!
 
@SonofJoe: But we learn something in the process.
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@chrisri: Fiat recommends insane OCIs each 40.000km. I'd never run an oil more than 15.000km. The oil can be in good shape, but flushing it's the only way to clean the engine. Bad way of saving money.
Another Spanish idiom: "El dinero del pobre recorre el camino dos veces" --> The money of the poor do the path two times.

I wouldn't like messing with politics in this forum, but there're some things that do deserve a comment:
"Nothing happened in Hungary". Really?
http://www.advojka.cz/archiv/2016/22/is-the-press-still-free-in-hungary
https://www.euractiv.com/section/central...ical-newspaper/
A fascist regime which outlaw parties and shot down newspapers its "something". The EU share the same opinion, and is showing them the exit door. The same as Erdogan is doing, as BrocLune remembers.

A note: "liberal" has not the same meaning at one shore or another of the Atlantic Ocean. It's better to use more specific terms in order to avoid misunderstandings.

@BrocLuno. Sadly, autoritarism is regaining the field far and wide. Liberty is only for proud and brave men and women, and nowadays people is afraid and seeking certainty in a very complex and increasingly competitive world. Hungary, Austria, Poland... Turkey! Once, the only democracy in a muslim country, liquidate by an islamist government... How bad idea is mixing politics with religion! In Europe we have a long long history with that.

You're right, freedoms are under threat everywere. But, when was in other way? We have to defend it, refusing autoritarism in our society (first) and in any place of the globe.

For instance, an attack to free press in the USA:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38187258
That would be inconceivable in EU, even in the present fascist Hungary (perhaps Belarussia, Ukraine or Russia, certainly in Turkey).

But in any way I'm trying to say this is the Garden of Eden. No way!!! I'm also a harsh critic of Spanish political and economical situation:
http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/12/13/inenglish/1355413536_960092.html
http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/02/07/inenglish/1391774548_753814.html
... and so on. En todas partes cuecen habas. Plenty of things to be ashamed everywere...

Human Rights have a special characteristic: they are UNIVERSAL. An attack to them in any place concerns all mankind.

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5 years ago I spent lots of time and money in Turkey - both Ankara and Istanbul. We walked places and felt safe the whole time. Now? Not too interested in going back and spending my money there again ...
 
Originally Posted By: 4WD
5 years ago I spent lots of time and money in Turkey - both Ankara and Istanbul. We walked places and felt safe the whole time. Now? Not too interested in going back and spending my money there again ...

You were safe because of strong law enforcement. Nothing changed at the core. It was always like this underneath of pro western facade.
 
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