Best cleaning oils have high calcium?

[CharlieBauer]

Is it correct that the more Calcium in oil, the more it cleans?

So certain HM oils, certain Euro oils eg M1 0w40, and certain HDDO oils, would be the best choices for cleaning?

 

[AirgunSavant]

Do HM oils really want to clean out the engine that well?????
Possible seal issues and sludge removal issues could occur......????????

 

[DemoFly]

Typically. There could be non-metallic organic additives that have detergency that don't show up in a UOA, though.

Some add packs use Sodium, some add packs use Magnesium. There's really no scenario where you can apples to apples compare any two oils based on additive numbers. Just anecdotal evidence, really.

But yes, Calcium is a detergent additive. More of it typically means better cleaning.

 

[69GTX]

Mobil 1 20 and 30 grades use a Calcium and Magnesium blend. That works just fine for cleaning. Castrol synthetics used to use that same mix only with higher magnesium levels. To confuse the issue M1 offers a high calcium, no magnesium oil in their 40 and 50 grades. And I think Castrol Edge still uses the medium magnesium mix somewhere in their line. All the SOPUS oils tend to be high Calcium. Then you have Valvoline, NAPA, Schaeffer, Royal Purple and others than run medium Ca and moderate Sodium. I'm sure some of those "clean" pretty well too.

 

[BrocLuno]

I read somewhere in a Chevron paper that Ca was added specifically for detergency ...

 

[Doog]

Best cleaning oil I have ever used is PP

 

[akela]

Originally Posted By: DemoFly
Typically. There could be non-metallic organic additives that have detergency that don't show up in a UOA, though.

Some add packs use Sodium, some add packs use Magnesium. There's really no scenario where you can apples to apples compare any two oils based on additive numbers. Just anecdotal evidence, really.

But yes, Calcium is a detergent additive. More of it typically means better cleaning.

and which ones are good for the piston ring cleaning?

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: CharlieBauer
Is it correct that the more Calcium in oil, the more it cleans?

So certain HM oils, certain Euro oils eg M1 0w40, and certain HDDO oils, would be the best choices for cleaning?


Yeabut, Calcium is better than Magnesium for diesels. A mix of both Ca and Mg is better for petrol jobs, as the Mg lasts longer. Sodium is used in some cheaper oils as an alternative that also has an anti wear function and it makes UOA analysis tricky as anti freeze also contains Na based compounds.

M1 0w40 has about 3000 ppm of Ca, but some major brand truck oils and one of the Amsoil oils have 3500 to 4000 ppm of Ca.

 

[UltrafanUK]

Shell Ultra 0w30 (A3/B4) was no 1 and any major brand GTL or German Synthoil (Group 4) will do a real good job on the rings.

 

[fdcg27]

While we do know which oils are advertised as having the best cleaning abilities we don't actually know which are the best cleaning oils in actual use so we really can't answer this question.
Magnesium appears to offer superior detergency to calcium so a blend of the two might be best.
I'm not too sure that any oil on its own can clean up coked rings.
For that, you need a stronger medicine like Kreen.
Oil detergency is more about cleaning up after itself than it is about cleaning up the residue of past neglect.

 

[WhoKnows]

Nope. Calcium gives a higher TBN, ash and provides longer OCI, maybe 1-2%, but that's almost nothing.
Ester based oils are known as cleansing. Regular HC oil even with high ppm of Ca and short OCI will not clean, especially one of the hottest zones- pistons and rings.
The best way to cope with dirty piston rings, not even rings, but their channels and special holes at the bottom of these channels is to unassemble your engine and use agressive cleaner. Also you can add such a cleaner through your spark plug holes and leave for some time. After that start your engine without spark plugs several times, but don't forget to put some cloth(rag) over plug holes, otherwise be ready to see how deposit's pieces will shoot your roof.

 

[UltrafanUK]

If you short trip a lot without any WOT time, have a badly worn block or an engine with design issues relating to stuck rings, then a good cleaner oil can get the oil scraper rings clear of varnish, BUT it will take a number of short OCI's. Best to use a major brand idle flush additive just before the oil & filter are changed.

Cleaning the compression rings is best done by a good long autobahn session on a Sunday morning. Using the right fuel helps and if it's not too cold, a good old piston soak will work. The main risk is that the deposits are helping the rings in compression terms and cold starting results after the soak.

 

[MolaKule]

This might be of interest:

Ethylene glycol in engine oil

 

[77GrandPrix]

UltrafanUK, you stated that Sodium is an alternative used in cheap oils. (Sorry, I tried to shorten your actual quote and messed it up).

I totally disagree with that statement. In fact, if you will review the data on the PQIA website, you will see that most if not all of the "cheap off-brands" use high amounts of calcium and no sodium. It is my understanding that the high sodium add packs are designed to provide excellent engine protection without poisoning the catalyst. Can you lend credibility to your statement with data? I'm not trying to be confrontational. I would just like to understand the basis of your statement/opinion.

 

[UltrafanUK]

Liqui Moly and Mobil do not use Na add's in any of their oils that I've seen, it's only used in a few non GTL or G4 standard base oils.
It does get used in cheaper oil like one of the Valvoline oils and was in Castrol GTX 10w40. Part of the reason it might be getting used more as an alternative to Ca or Mg, is that it allows the amount of Moly (Mo) to be reduced slightly, IF the oil has enough Boron (Bn).
The last Valvoline oil I looked at had no Moly, no Boron, but did have some Na. It was a real cheap one, BUT you do get what you pay for and salt is almost free!

Google is good for the data.

 

[chrisri]

Valvoline is major brand and comparable with any other in quality or price. Actually, it's often more expensive than Shell equivalent.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: chrisri
Valvoline is major brand and comparable with any other in quality or price. Actually, it's often more expensive than Shell equivalent.

Yes I too consider Valvoline to be a quality major brand.

They use Ca and Na in their ILSAC grades, but Ca only in their Euro ACEA grades.

Here is a link to their PDF
(SynPower Specs)

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: 77GrandPrix
UltrafanUK, you stated that.....

I totally disagree with that statement............Can you lend credibility to your statement with data?


Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Google is good for the data.


Come on mate, You must be able to do a little better than that to back up your words. The request from 77GrandPrix was reasonable and polite.

 

[fdcg27]

+1
Here's are a couple of little data points that anyone can find on this board using the search tool.
We have a member here who owns an engine shop in Dayton, OH.
He has stated that of the engines his shop tears into the ones run on Valvoline oils are typically very clean.
I can tell you personally that Valvoline Maxlife 10W-40 worked very well in my old BMW, although the Maxlife formulation of that time did contain moly. I can back this up with a UOA, which I posted in August 2012 in case anyone wants to view it.
There may be reasons beyond cost that have Valvoline continuing with their sodium add pack. It may offer advantages not obvious to us.
Any oil formulation involves trade-offs. It's not all good in all ways.

 

[chrisri]

Originally Posted By: SR5
Originally Posted By: chrisri
Valvoline is major brand and comparable with any other in quality or price. Actually, it's often more expensive than Shell equivalent.

Yes I too consider Valvoline to be a quality major brand.

They use Ca and Na in their ILSAC grades, but Ca only in their Euro ACEA grades.

Here is a link to their PDF
(SynPower Specs)

I've never understood the bad talking about Valvoline. Especially from a layman whose only insight is 20 US$ VOA.