shell ultra 5w40 vs motul 8100 oil control rings

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Gday,

Been using shell helix ultra 5w-40 and been a fan for a while.

Using it in a e46 325i bmw m54 engine with some success but im still chasing the oil consumption problem somewhat which these cars can have, CCV, stuck oil control rings, vacuum etc are all causes and discussed at length on the forums.

Out of shell ultra 5w/40 (the new pure plus one) or Motul 8100 x-cess, which one maybe best suited to cleaning, (pao, esters etc) freeing up the oil rings from beneath after i do a piston soak from above on the next oil change using ac delco x66P of which i had good results last time around ?

I can get sheel for $45 for 5L at the moment and have 10L in the garage. 7L of Motul will be about $134.

Just putting it out there really, i have used motul in bikes before but not the car. The $ for the motul, plus the X66p cleaner would prob go toward another 5L or o of shell which could be used for topping up the oil use haha
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I would probably continue using the Shell personally and use the money saved for make up oil or another top end cleaning treatment.

On an unrelated note I was in Adelaide courtesy of the US Navy back in 2013 we flew a P-3 there from Japan for a multi national exercise. What a beautiful city, I didn't ever want to leave!

Good luck on your quest to reduce consumption!
 
Shell. And that's coming from a place where Motul is 26€/5L and SHU 25-27€/5L (0W40 SHU is actually cheaper online).

I don't think Motul will make a real difference vs Shell, so use the money saved for something else
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(Motul is also a tad thicker, but that's not what you are looking for, I guess?)
 
Originally Posted By: Popsy
Shell. And that's coming from a place where Motul is 26€/5L and SHU 25-27€/5L (0W40 SHU is actually cheaper online).

I don't think Motul will make a real difference vs Shell, so use the money saved for something else
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(Motul is also a tad thicker, but that's not what you are looking for, I guess?)

I agree with you!
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I've used the 8100 Xcess (still do) but for your cleaning purposes I also agree that the Shell is probably a better choice. You might also consider the Penrite ten tenths Premium 0 (0-40). They claim all PAO/Ester and I'm guessing the 0-40 might have more ester but like I said, guessing. I had better cleaning results with the esters but that's just me.

I've visited in Adelaide also (2001) and like FlyNavy thought it was great. Climate reminded me of San Diego. Good wines! Nice ladies!
 
I'm a fellow adelaide user! Not sure if you have a sprint auto near you but if you do, take the SCA catalogue in and load up on Shell. They will beat the SCA price by 10%. I bought three jugs last time for $35 each!
 
Thanks to all for your input. Popsy, dexus KL31.........and friar & flynavy for your nice comments re the city of Adelaide, sometimes it takes a trip overseas to appreciate what we have here (im from UK originally).

I knew the shell was a good oil but didnt realise its a good cleaner too for my purposes too.

KL31 - yes i have a sprint auto and SCA near each other at Glynde. It didnt know they price matched/beat, they're always way more expensive than SCA. I was awaiting replies so missed out on SCA shell at $45, ended yesterday.
Question - last time you bought it for $35, did Sprint beat an already discounted price, if so where from ?
 
Just for everyone else who didn't get to see my PM to lobe:

Yes I had Sprint beat SCA by 10% as per their policy. You have to bring in SCA's catalogue as Sprint are stuck in the 1980's and are unsure about acknowledging the mysterious thing called internet. I swear every time I go into one of those stores there's 80's music playing on Triple M...


Very easy to bring catalogues though as SCA seem to pop up wherever a competitor is nearby. Just walk into SCA, grab 10 catalogues, walk out and raid Sprint
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I doubt you'll take my advice but if you do indeed have a stuck ring problem and want to free it up without dismantling the engine, I'd run it on for a while on a mineral 20W50. I'd actually recommend a 20W40 but these aren't easy to find.

Group III (Hydro-cracked) and PAO 'synthetic' base oils beat bog standard minerals hands down in terms of oxidative & thermal stability but they aren't available in 'heavy' grades eg there is no Group III equivalent of something like Esso 600SN. It's not easy getting crud off pistons on but heavy base oils are probably the way to do it rather than using thin base oils that have had their viscosity boosted with VII polymer.

Oh, and I did a diesel additive field trial at PRA Adelaide back in 1989. All I remember was it was bloody cold with the wind blowing in from the Antarctic. That and the brown tap water...
 
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There's a general belief that it's the metallic detergents in engine oil that keep your pistons & grooves clean. In my experience that's not the case. It's generally ashless dispersant (the stuff that's suppose to stop sludge) that keeps pistons clean and that's odd because it's hard to see by what chemical mechanism it might pull this trick off.

I've often wondered whether dispersants work 'physically' rather than chemically, just by virtue of the fact they are heavy. Indeed, heavy base oils often give spectacularly high engine test piston merit ratings that are out of all proportion to the amount of additive they contain. To be fair, I've never actually tried to free a stuck ring on a piston because oil formulation is usually all about preventing problems from occurring in the first place. But if I was asked the question, heavy base oil would be the thing I'd look at first.
 
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G’day SonofJoe,

Yep, that wind can cut straight through you sometimes !
The tap water isnt brown anymore, but its funny as i was talking to our chemical engineer this morning and we were discussing this regarding alot of DI water we use here, due to town water TDS etc. Even the ships didnt used to take on water here or so the story goes.


Thanks for your input and I am keen to know more just as Popsy was too.

In your opinion, what oils available here in OZ :-

So if I use a mineral oil like Shell Helix HX3 20w50 is $18 / 5L on special at the moment, would this be ok? Valvoline semi syn 15w40 is also on special $20 ( car takes 6.5L ) and i think i have about 1.5L of this currently in the shed.
I also currently have enough Nulon 15w40 mineral oil to do an oil change, could I use this ?
What kind of OCI would I use ?
Should I add anything to this heavy oil before its change (an oil flush etc) ?

I used to use Valvoline XLD 20w/50 in my other 318i but that has the m43 engine.

I too had read all the usual stuff re oils and was under the belief that a good quality syn oil would clean the crud gumming up the low tension oil control rings out.
Long story short, the m54 engine seems to suffer from this, M52 doesn’t (different oil rings used). I have read the problem can start when the CCV (crankcase ventilation) system fails. If this is not caught quickly, the oil rings end up gumming up and then even after the CCV is replaced and the crankcase pressure, inlet manifold vacuum scenario is back to normal, the rings continue to cause problems with oil consumption. I also read short trips, steady city driving can also cause problems even with a good CCV system.

Some owners on the forums have done a tear down and replaced the rings etc.
I have had some success with a piston soak using AC Delco X66P – which has free’d things up but I don’t think the oil, or the OCI was sufficient to keep things clean, or maybe the soak achieved a border line result, which didn’t take long to revert back again.

I plan to do this again soon.
 
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brake cleaner wouldn't. it's basically a solvent that gets rid of the oily film.

Anybody remember the tales of brake fluid used to clean combustion chambers?
 
Get BG EPR. They have good reputation for helping stuck rings. Pour it into the oil right before an oil change, Rev your engine to 1200 RPMs or drive the car for 15 minutes and change the oil.
 
Lobe,

Apologies for the delay in getting back to you. I was migrating south to warmer climes for the next five weeks (Cape Town).

Okay, so if you're tempted to have a go, this is what I'd recommend...

First, go for the Shell 20W50 oil rather than either of the 15W40s. This exercise will be all about the amount of heavy base oil in the oil. The 20W50 will contain about 80%, the 15W40s only about 30%.

Don't be too worried by what it says on the back of the Shell can. It will probably say it's a lowly (aka garbage) API SG/CD oil. However the oil will very likely to meet API SL/CF (so not state-of-the-art but not skanky either). Don't ask me why I would say this, just trust me. Also don't worry about wear damage. This oil will contain a decent amount of ZDDP and possibly even a splosh of Moly. Also 20W50 does load bearing better than almost any other viscosity grade.

Okay, do a normal oil drain and fill with 20W50. The engine should start no probs assuming you're at typical Ozzie ambient temperature (hot enough to burn a monkey's bum Bruce!). If it doesn't start or the engine shows any sign of distress then abandon this exercise straight away and do a normal drain & fill. However I wouldn't be recommending this if I thought it would cause any damage.

Assuming the engine starts, let her idle for about 5 minutes. Assuming idling is okay drive her GENTLY around the block a few times just to get the oil circulating around the pistons. Assuming this is problem free, take her for a GENTLE drive. Don't be tempted to do the old Italian Tune-up as it will make bad things happen. You want this oil to remain relatively cool (as close to 100C as possible) and you ideally don't want the turbo kicking in.

Assuming this works okay, let the engine sit overnight. You want those heavy aromatics in the heavy base oil, sitting in the grooves doing their thing and loosening deposits.

Repeat as above either until you've lost patience or you've done a couple of hundred miles. Don't keep this oil in the engine long-term. I'd say the absolute max would be 500 miles. If you drain the 20W50 and it's relatively clean, then it may not of done much in terms of removing ring crud but at least you tried. However if it's black after a few hundred miles, then assume the 20W50 hasn't oxidised and the black stuff that's discolouring the oil is the offending crud you were looking to remove. Once (if?) you're happy, then revert to your normal oil and trash the engine to within an inch of its life! (joke).

I will say again, I have not done this before, especially on an expensive beemer like yours! If you are worried, just don't do it. However all my instincts as a one time, top flight PCMO formulator say to me it's worth trying this because it might just work.
 
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G’day SonofJoe,

Thanks for the reply outlining the method.

Cape Town sounds alright, with the impending euro winter (though I don’t mind snow boarding). I worked in Port Elizabeth, SA when I used to be involved with cyl head/block mould & casting development through to manufacture about 15 yrs ago.


I’m willing to give your recommendations a go and appreciate your input.
I have an hands on aptitude with engines so know what you mean re taking it easy plus my daily drive can be very gentle with the engine hardly under load if I chose, so no problems and be rest assured, I’ll let it idle, listen, feel how the engine is running with the heavy base oil in it and make a call on it.
Also my work commute early on a morning, allows me to coast a while if I choose too and is mostly downhill then a steady drive, flat city stuff, stop lights etc. Now the temps are coming means an ok temp to fire up after work on the home run at 3.30 – 4pm. I also keep an eye on the oil colour on the dip stick and have a look at the filter (cartridge) too whilst running this oil.
I do my usual soak from the top with the AC X66P, fire up with the existing oil and burn off (I do this at night time ! ), then I’ll take it for a run, drop the oil hot, leave to drain overnight. Then do the heavy base oil treatment thereafter in the morning.

I should receive my AC x66P in a week or so, so will be ready to do probably the next week end, so i'll post back up my results.


Thanks again

Lobe
 
Just a few more comments as I've woken up dead early and have time on my hands...

Your BMW problem is just one of several instances I've come across of what I've been calling late onset oil ring sticking (or LOORS for short). Although facts are hard to come by, this might typically hit you at around the 50,000 mile mark & the primary symptom is a sudden increase in oil consumption (but with no loss of compression or drivability). The cause of the problem is a slow accumulation of gunk in one or more of the oil control rings, its associated tensioner spring and the drain holes which sit under the ring. Typically the oil ring assembly will look like it's been 'glued' into its groove and sit flush with the rings lands. Because the oil control ring no longer performs its scrape and drain function, hydraulic pressure builds-up on the down stroke and forces oil through the top two rings/ring gaps and into the combustion chamber. This problem should rate as extremely severe in that the only known proven solution is to completely dismantle your engine at vast expense to remove and replace the offending rings.

It probably fair to say that LOORS is the engine oil industry's 'dirty little secret'. Although you won't find it on Google, the OEMs and oil companies must be aware that it's happening. However, because it's something that happening OUTSIDE of the warranty period, it's something that's getting no attention whatsoever. It's probably overly cynical of me to say it, but I suspect the OEMs regard anyone with LOORS as a potential new sale, not an existing customer that needs helping out. It's interesting to contrast LOORS with LSPI which could potentially happen inside the warranty period. LSPI is getting a massive amount of attention that is wholly disproportionate to the actual risks of it happening!

IMO, LOORS is happening because of the confluence of several factors...

First is the move to ever thinner, synthetic, wide cross-grade oils. Compared to an old 20W50 mineral, you're generally looking at much higher oil volatility, higher VII polymer loadings and worse base oil solvency. The impact of high volatility is the real killer as it potentially loads up the PCV system with oil 'carry-over' as opposed to the fuel & water it was originally conceived to deal with. I can't prove it but all my instincts tell me that the source of the gunk that's causing oil rings to stick is burnt PCV oil and not the products of 'traditional' oil oxidation.

I think a second factor is that some OEMs have been pushing the bore/piston/rings design envelope to achieve certain goals (lower friction, more power, better FE & less emissions) without due regard as to how this might in turn impact on long-term deposit formation. I think certain OEMs are more guilty of this than others (yes Fritz, I'm looking at YOU!). In my bones I can't but think that the basic scientific limits on what can be done are increasingly being substituted for limits based on 'what we think we can get away with'.

The last factor that I'd say has allowed LOORS to develop is what I'll call The Engine Test Mentality. There was probably once a time when oils were judged on what they could do. However over the decades this has morphed into judging an oil on what tests it can pass with no regard whatsoever as to how it might fare in the field. When BobbyDavro and his ilk talk about 'better' oils, what they are actually talking about is an oil that has managed to negotiate it's way through the obstacle course of tests that are required to obtain some kind of 'approval'. By their very nature, tests are invariably 'one-off' tests that in some way relate to one very severe OCI. And there's the problem! There's almost nothing in the testing protocols that covers problems which may develop CUMULATIVELY over several oil change cycles...something perhaps like LOORS...


Ah, dawn is breaking. Time for coffee at last...
 
G'day SonofJoe,

Thankyou for your last post and a very informative read indeed. If you have time or you have other interesting articles or links etc, please let me know as i find it interesting. Every days a school day as they say.
I was having a homebrew IPA sat in the sun on a beautiful Adelaide day after work when it came through, whereas you were about to start your day, having a coffee at dawn.

I agree with you on all your comments re LOORS and certainly alot of OEM's have gone to the low tension oil rings for the reasons that you state. I think this was the case on my M54 engine. IIRC the M52 didnt have the low tension rings.
When i had the valve cover off to do the vc gasket a year ago, it was very clean. No sludge etc, just some slight varnishing in colour but pretty good. When i rebuilt the VANOS, same thing.
Your insight regarding much higher oil volatility, higher VII polymer loadings and worse base oil solvency and PCV systems with oil 'carry-over' as opposed to the fuel & water it was originally design, causing oil rings to stick with burnt PCV oil for leads me to think this might be happening with these M54 engines along with others as you state.

The engine test mentality description was very good too, at a basic level the amount of times one sees it mentioned on car forums "stick with an oil abcdef brand, its vw 502 or whatever relative tests it has past, with little or no regard to what it can actually do, like you say.

If you have time, would you be able to get back to me on the following with regard to my heavy base oil clean, i forgot to clarify a few things :-

1. After the initial 20w50 clean run, am ok ok to use a 15w40 Nulon mineral for another short OCI, ( i have 10L) and could do this to then allow me to do another pistion soak from the top, then drop this oil and put my final fill in ?
2. Final fill - i have 10L of Shell helix ultra 5w40 already, would this be ok for my final fill ?
Do you have a recommendation for the OCI of my SHU 5w40 ?

I did have a chuckle at your Bobby Davro comment. I remember him from my UK days, he was the big thing on Tv in the 80's when i was growing up !

Regards

Lobe
 
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