What's the reason Valvoline uses sodium?

[SonofJoe]

Ah, this may be even worse than I thought...

I sort of made the assumption that LSPI would just be a PCMO thing and HDDOs would continue to act as a vast sink for Ca detergents. But of course, if the oil companies want to tag on the latest PCMO luggage label (which they usually do), then you open the door wide to yet more Mg demand.

And because Euro PCMOs all still tag on API specs as well as ACEA & OEM claims, there's another huge slug of potential Mg demand to meet. If this happens, there's going to be an awful lot of top tier/OEM FF oils that have been progressively developed over many years which are going to have to be reformulated overnight at vast expense!

The biggest irony of all is that there's probably going to be a mass migration of Mg from the grubbier end of the oil market (the Middle-East & Africa) to the top tier. Proof if any were needed that God likes a bloody good joke!

 

[Jetronic]

Originally Posted By: Virtus_Probi
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Well, if you look at the oils using sodium, they're always without moly.

I'd look to that as far as functionality goes...


There was one exception in the PQIA's 2013 testing of 5W30 synths...Schaefer's Supreme 9000.
I remember somebody on here stating that Schaefer does things their own way...megadose of moly to go with that sodium.

http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/schaeffersyn.htm


yes, and the ravenol 0w16 uses moly, boron, and sodium aswell IIRC. but those are really outliers.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted By: Solarent
It's already beginning....

take a look at this VOA on the new Rotella 5W40... note the Magnesium and Calcium levels

Delvac 1 5w-40 has been magnesium based, too, for a significant period of time, since the CJ-4 rollout at the earliest, if I recall correctly.

 

[SR5]

This is a great thread, for us non-formulators, could somebody list the pro's and con's of Mg Vs Ca detergent.

I have heard talk of Ca and LSPI, but I thought it was only one or two papers, but not an overwhelming body of evidence. I also recall something about Mo reducing the negative effect of the Ca in causing LSPI.

Why do most of the Euro ACEA oils appear to use a Ca heavy pack? There must be some advantage to it and are we throwing out the baby with the bath water?

I always thought the best way to counteract LSPI was to avoid the low engine speeds, buy a manual transmission and keeps the revs up. Some modern auto's appear programmed to race as fast as they can to top gear and hold it there as long as possible.

 

[SonofJoe]

Originally Posted By: SR5
This is a great thread, for us non-formulators, could somebody list the pro's and con's of Mg Vs Ca detergent.

I have heard talk of Ca and LSPI, but I thought it was only one or two papers, but not an overwhelming body of evidence. I also recall something about Mo reducing the negative effect of the Ca in causing LSPI.

Why do most of the Euro ACEA oils appear to use a Ca heavy pack? There must be some advantage to it and are we throwing out the baby with the bath water?

I always thought the best way to counteract LSPI was to avoid the low engine speeds, buy a manual transmission and keeps the revs up. Some modern auto's appear programmed to race as fast as they can to top gear and hold it there as long as possible.


TBH, I don't know why Ca attained the supremacy over Mg that it did because the industry was settled this way long before I joined it. I did hear stories of how Mg would interact badly with water and how, once upon a time, there was a Ford Tornado engine test which used to see problems with bore glazing with Mg. The thing is, when I played around with Mg I didn't encounter any such problems. Likewise folks will tell you Ca is best for HDDO but I got some of my best ever diesel test passes with Mg.

One thing I thought I should really have mentioned in my comments about a potential industry upheaval instigated by LSPI and Mg, is that the costs of converting plants, running hyper-expensive test programs to effect any switch to pure Mg, etc will not be borne not by the OEMs (who will drive this through), by the oil companies & AddCo's (who will do what they're told) or the test houses (who will be the biggest beneficiaries) but by YOU, the final consumer! For almost any other area of commerce, 'He who pays the piper, calls the tune'. Not here he doesn't...

 

[SR5]

Lucky for me, my silly and excessive oil stash (Ca detergent & ACEA spec heavy) should have me observing this problem from the sidelines for the next 5 or 6 years. Ten years infact, if I let my long-life stay-in-grade oils, actually stay in the sump long enough to prove they really can stay in grade.