Need help on the old car oil in bike/scooter war

[Dannyyankel94]

Hey everyone.
I own a small scooter that has a CVT (dry clutch) and a separate final drive that has its own fluids, completely separate from the engine.
The max rpm this scooter see is 9000 rpm.
I've been reading a lot on this topic and I can safely conclude that:
1/ The whole JASO thing is about wet clutch. I have a dry clutch, so no need for that.
2/ The claim that gears in the engine case of a motorbike will "squash" the oil somehow. I don't have gears inside my engine, the final gears are separate. my engine oil lubricates only the crankshaft, crank bearings, cylinder/piston and camshaft. So I don't need to care about this.

The thing that sticks with me though is how a car rarely goes over 6000 rpm (this is true) and a small engine like my scooter sees 6000 rpm everyday, although my engine is water cooled, not air cooled, the engine temp tends to be stable at 100 degrees celsius during normal operation.
my question is can high rpm wear down a car oil so much that it becomes a concern to use in my scooter? My friend works at a car dealer and he can get me a whole load of cheap synthetic car oil so if it's OK I can save myself a lot of money instead of having to use "bike oils" just to not having to worry about the high rpm tearing the oil apart or something like that.
Thanks.

 

[KingCake]

One of those 49cc scooters? Is it air cooled? You're right you don't need JASO spec oil. A good 10w-40 conventional or 5/10-30 synthetic should work fine.

 

[Kamele0N]

+1

And a GL4 80w90...or 80w or 75w90 in a gearbox (final drive)

 

[Ducked]

As above BUT your scoot likely has "flat tappets" and won't have an exhaust catalyst, so it'd maybe be a good idea to get an early API spec oil that doesn't have the new lowered zinc levels, if you can find one.

Motorcycle oils tend to be API SJ or earlier.

I have used Mobil Delvac 15/40 in small motorcycle engines, but since shear can be an issue there I've also used straight 40W oil.

Shear won't be much of an issue in your scooter, but then low temperatures aren't either in your location, so you can pretty much use whatever you want.

If price/availability were the same I'd choose a straight weight oil.

 

[KingCake]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
As above BUT your scoot likely has "flat tappets" and won't have an exhaust catalyst, so it'd maybe be a good idea to get an early API spec oil that doesn't have the new lowered zinc levels.

Motorcycle oils tend to be API SJ or earlier.


it's not 1940. the cam is probably glass reinforced nylon

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: Ducked
As above BUT your scoot likely has "flat tappets" and won't have an exhaust catalyst, so it'd maybe be a good idea to get an early API spec oil that doesn't have the new lowered zinc levels.

Motorcycle oils tend to be API SJ or earlier.


it's not 1940. the cam is probably glass reinforced nylon


You say that like its a good thing. (I mean apart from the current somewhat lower level of bombing and genocide)

Seriously, hadn't heard that one. Motorcycles/scooters here don't get as small as 50cc since the demise of 2-strokes and AFAIK are all-metal cams.

Did a quick search and found a 1996 Briggs and Stratton patent, so you could be right, in which case anything goes.

 

[Dannyyankel94]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
As above BUT your scoot likely has "flat tappets" and won't have an exhaust catalyst, so it'd maybe be a good idea to get an early API spec oil that doesn't have the new lowered zinc levels, if you can find one.

Motorcycle oils tend to be API SJ or earlier.

I have used Mobil Delvac 15/40 in small motorcycle engines, but since shear can be an issue there I've also used straight 40W oil.

Shear won't be much of an issue in your scooter, but then low temperatures aren't either in your location, so you can pretty much use whatever you want.

If price/availability were the same I'd choose a straight weight oil.


It's a 125cc Honda scooter with water cooling and luckily, roller tappet or rocker arms. And unfortunately it has a catalytic converter. My friend is getting me Mobil1 OW40 (european car formula), silver plastic bottle. My engine needs about 800ml, the bottle holds 1 quart which is 946ml so 5 bottles and I got 1 for free. You're right low temp is not a problem here since the lowest I see is 10 degrees C. My concern is not actually price/quality ratio but I want to run a synthetic because this scooter will stay with me for the next 6 years or so as a commute and vacation vehicle too.
Thanks for replying.

 

[Phishin]

Dannyyankel94:

What scooter do you have? How big is the engine? I assume if you're spinning at 9000RPM's, it's a 50cc scooter. And since it's water cooled, I'm guessing you're talking about a Honda Ruckus/Zoomer. Correct?

Let me tell you about my experience with water cooled scooters spinning that fast. I have a Honda Ruckus with 20,000 miles on it. That's a lot. And I've never had to shim my lifters, ever.

I've always run a diesel (HDEO) oil in my Ruckus. It doesn't matter what (conventional or synthetic), just buy a name brand. A few times I've run a 10w40 oil in when I was in a pinch. However, the KEY IS TO CHANGE YOUR OIL EVERY 600-800 MILES. There is no oil filter on these machines. The oil is beat to death VERY quickly. With a bit of practice, you can change your oil in about 3-5 minutes. So, it's really not that big of a deal.

I'm not making stuff up, or guessing. This is REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE. My initial knowledge was gained from small scooter engine builders in Hawaii and Taiwan. It's worked, and it's worked very well.

 

[Kira]

The merits of using used automobile engine oil in a scooter engine would depend on the specifications and condition of the oil you could get.

Can your friend know he has drained synthetic oil from a customer's car? Can he isolate younger used oil?

If you're that strapped for cash I suppose you'll go with the cleanest looking stuff your friend can find.

How much oil does your scooter's crankcase hold? How much are you avoiding spending? Perhaps inverting newly emptied oil bottles at auto parts stores would yield enough.

I just read the above post. If engines of your type destroy motor oil that fast then you have no choice but to get new oil. If you're that strapped for cash, how did you get the scooter? Kira

 

[Phishin]

Originally Posted By: Kira

How much oil does your scooter's crankcase hold? How much are you avoiding spending? Perhaps inverting newly emptied oil bottles at auto parts stores would yield enough.



Kira,

It wasn't apparent to me that the OP was thinking of using used oil. I don't think he was saying that. At least, I hope not....

But in the case of my scooter, the darn little thing only holds 0.6 quarts!!!! Even though it is liquid cooled (thank God), there was an oil cooler kit available for it. Now my oil changes require about 0.9 quarts. That's a 50% increase in sump capacity. So to me, I think it was worth the investment. Plus, this is a simple carb'ed engine, so cooling the oil a bit on an engine that spends 90% of it's life spinning between 9k-10.5k RPM's isn't harming a thing, I feel.

 

[Phishin]

Dang, you posted right before me.

M1 0w40 will shear to a 20 weight oil pretty quickly. You'd be better off running a 10w30 or 10w40 conventional than M1 0w40. If it were my bike, look for a 5w40 or 15w40...and change every 600-800 miles like I stated before.

You can ignore the catalytic converter. There are no down-stream oxygen sensors on your bike.

 

[Dannyyankel94]

Originally Posted By: Kira
The merits of using used automobile engine oil in a scooter engine would depend on the specifications and condition of the oil you could get.

Can your friend know he has drained synthetic oil from a customer's car? Can he isolate younger used oil?

If you're that strapped for cash I suppose you'll go with the cleanest looking stuff your friend can find.

How much oil does your scooter's crankcase hold? How much are you avoiding spending? Perhaps inverting newly emptied oil bottles at auto parts stores would yield enough.

I just read the above post. If engines of your type destroy motor oil that fast then you have no choice but to get new oil. If you're that strapped for cash, how did you get the scooter? Kira


I think I need to clarify something. I'm not using used oil from cars lol. I actually mean he can get me synthetic car oil at their original price, that's all. I'm not that stupid to go and use old oil that has been in an engine for over 20k miles, yuck. I use Mobil1 0W40 right now, totally new.

Actually my scooter is a PCX125, I did not mention its name since I thought nobody knows what it is. It is water cooled, and has fuel injection so yes it does have a catalytic converter and an oxygen sensor. That's why I need to be careful before killing those expensive sensors. That's also why I want to keep this scooter for at least 6 years or more because it's very comfortable to drive around.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: Kira
The merits of using used automobile engine oil in a scooter engine would depend on the specifications and condition of the oil you could get.



Don't see any indication that the OP has considered this, but I have.

My reasoning is that cars don't shear oil much, and have oil filters.

Most low capacity motorcycles do shear oil much, and put clutch material in it, and don't have oil filters.

It wouldn't, from my perspective, be completely unreasonable to run the oil in the car, for say a year, and then finish it off in the motorcycle.

Havn't done it yet because my car was putting a lot of metal in the oil, which I would have to confirm as a resolved problem or get it out after draining, perhaps magnetically, and anyway I have loads of old but unused oil I need to use up.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Phishin
Originally Posted By: Kira

How much oil does your scooter's crankcase hold? How much are you avoiding spending? Perhaps inverting newly emptied oil bottles at auto parts stores would yield enough.



Kira,

It wasn't apparent to me that the OP was thinking of using used oil. I don't think he was saying that. At least, I hope not....

But in the case of my scooter, the darn little thing only holds 0.6 quarts!!!! Even though it is liquid cooled (thank God), there was an oil cooler kit available for it. Now my oil changes require about 0.9 quarts. That's a 50% increase in sump capacity. So to me, I think it was worth the investment. Plus, this is a simple carb'ed engine, so cooling the oil a bit on an engine that spends 90% of it's life spinning between 9k-10.5k RPM's isn't harming a thing, I feel.

It's seems to me he's talking about high zinc- prior to SJ- oil, which may be hard to find.

 

[Phishin]

I'd still run an HDEO. Conventional or synthetic.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig


It's seems to me he's talking about high zinc- prior to SJ- oil, which may be hard to find.


He says "My friend is getting me Mobil1 OW40 (european car formula),"

How do you get "high zinc- prior to SJ- oil" from that?

I wouldn't personally run anything that skinny in anything anywhere outside the Arctic Circle, much less in a scooter in Vietnam, and I'd personally prefer "high zinc- prior to SJ- oil" in just about anything, but, apart from company cars, which don't count, I have no experience of vehicles with catalytic converters, (don't think ANY scooters or motorcycles here have them) and don't much want any.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Plenty of bikes have catalysts now, including my Burgman.

 

[Silk]

And my 2 stroke Zip.

 

[HerrStig]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: HerrStig


It's seems to me he's talking about high zinc- prior to SJ- oil, which may be hard to find.


He says "My friend is getting me Mobil1 OW40 (european car formula),"

How do you get "high zinc- prior to SJ- oil" from that?

I wouldn't personally run anything that skinny in anything anywhere outside the Arctic Circle, much less in a scooter in Vietnam, and I'd personally prefer "high zinc- prior to SJ- oil" in just about anything, but, apart from company cars, which don't count, I have no experience of vehicles with catalytic converters, (don't think ANY scooters or motorcycles here have them) and don't much want any.
You carelessly used the term "old oil". You confused several people.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: HerrStig
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: HerrStig


It's seems to me he's talking about high zinc- prior to SJ- oil, which may be hard to find.


He says "My friend is getting me Mobil1 OW40 (european car formula),"

How do you get "high zinc- prior to SJ- oil" from that?

I wouldn't personally run anything that skinny in anything anywhere outside the Arctic Circle, much less in a scooter in Vietnam, and I'd personally prefer "high zinc- prior to SJ- oil" in just about anything, but, apart from company cars, which don't count, I have no experience of vehicles with catalytic converters, (don't think ANY scooters or motorcycles here have them) and don't much want any.
You carelessly used the term "old oil". You confused several people.


If that's directed at me, don't think I did, but I might have missed it.

In general, I find people are confused on this forum (assuming they didn't start out that way) because they don't read what is written, (or don't understand it if they do).