TriboChemistry 1

[MolaKule]

Fill in the blanks to complete the two words in the sentence. A couple of letter clues are given.

The last letter of the first word is given and a middle letter is given for the last word.


Wear metals in the oil act as _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ N _ _ _ _ L _ _ _ _ .


Good Luck.

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

Sandpaper.

No matter what...I'm still ahead of those who aren't trying.

 

[Ohle_Manezzini]

FRICTION MODULATE

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Wear metals in the oil act as _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ N _ _ _ _ L _ _ _ _ .


What do you mean? The ones that show up on an ICP or the ones that don't?

The ones that show up do nothing while the ones that don't show up might.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
FRICTION MODULATE


Work on your math.

 

[mcrn]

Oxidation catalysts

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: MolaKule
Wear metals in the oil act as _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ N _ _ _ _ L _ _ _ _ .


What do you mean? The ones that show up on an ICP or the ones that don't?

The ones that show up do nothing while the ones that don't show up might.


Of course, Iron and silicon do nothing to the inside of your engine...except destroy it. If one has Fe in a UOA, and the ppm is in the hundreds, no harm. Sure. Let me know how that works out for ya.

Of course, I'm real stupid and I'm here to learn. I will sit at your feet and listen. Please list 12 wear metals used in an engine that DO NOT show up using an Inductive Coupled Plasma Spectrometer? Thanks.

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: mcrn
Oxidation catalysts
+1 In the oil or in the filter.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Of course, Iron and silicon do nothing to the inside of your engine...except destroy it. If one has Fe in a UOA, and the ppm is in the hundreds, no harm. Sure. Let me know how that works out for ya.

Of course, I'm real stupid and I'm here to learn. I will sit at your feet and listen. Please list 12 wear metals used in an engine that DO NOT show up using an Inductive Coupled Plasma Spectrometer? Thanks.


The wear metals that show up in the ICP are not the ones doing the harm.

I could formulate an oil sample with extremely high wear metal numbers via ICP and yet it would be harmless to an engine. Conversely I could also formulate an oil sample that would show no wear metals yet do enormous harm. ICP numbers are the result of wear not the cause.

People come on here all the time with UOAs from initial fills showing high wear metal numbers. Generally the comments are that the oil needs to be changed ASAP due to the results. Untrue. You really have no idea from that UOA what may be in the oil that is not being trapped by the filter that is doing harm to the engine.

 

[Ohle_Manezzini]

The breakin produce nano particle, but big microns specs, too, specially at the begining. Those big harmfull don't show up in uoas.

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

That's a fine non answer sir.

I see no wear metals listed in your answer.

I half way agree with you that wear metals listed in a UOA are the RESULT of wear, not the cause. However, wear begits wear; it may not be the initial wear, but the more debris (wear particles); the more wear occurs. The symptoms can become the cause.

To the public reader: Watch this and get back to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIovMr0ltzc

Yes, it is an infomercial. Yes, it contains factual information.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: mcrn
Oxidation catalysts


Wow nailed it early on!

Wear metals in lubricants do indeed act as oxidation catalysts, which is why metal inhibitor chemistry and oxidation inhibitors are included in lubricants.

 

[MolaKule]

Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Sandpaper.

No matter what...I'm still ahead of those who aren't trying.

 

[kschachn]

You're the one who cannot read. I said:

Quote:
What do you mean? The ones that show up on an ICP or the ones that don't?

The ones that show up do nothing while the ones that don't show up might.


I expanded and amplified that statement. Your question about the metals that don't show up on an ICP is meaningless. I never said they were invisible. I said that what is showing up in the analysis is not the material that is causing wear.

Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
That's a fine non answer sir.

I see no wear metals listed in your answer.

I half way agree with you that wear metals listed in a UOA are the RESULT of wear, not the cause. However, wear begits wear; it may not be the initial wear, but the more debris (wear particles); the more wear occurs. The symptoms can become the cause.

To the public reader: Watch this and get back to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIovMr0ltzc

Yes, it is an infomercial. Yes, it contains factual information.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
The breakin produce nano particle, but big microns specs, too, specially at the begining. Those big harmfull don't show up in uoas.


This is lifted from a Machinery Lubrication article. Note the upper limit of particle size detectable by emission spectrography and where it falls on their threat graph:

 

[MolaKule]

Here is the point of the exercise:

As far back as 1951

Iron and Copper as Catalysts in Lubricats

it was recognized that iron and copper can contribute to oxidation of a lubricant.



Catalytic Effects of Metals

Whether it be wear metals circulating through the oil or metal surfaces in contact with the lubricant, at the right activation temperature metals can act as catalysts toward the oxidation of the bulk lubricant.

 

[Jetronic]

The same principle is used in fuel borne catalysts to improve the burning of soot.

 

[Ohle_Manezzini]

Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
The breakin produce nano particle, but big microns specs, too, specially at the begining. Those big harmfull don't show up in uoas.


This is lifted from a Machinery Lubrication article. Note the upper limit of particle size detectable by emission spectrography and where it falls on their threat graph:

Nice graph. To answer your queston I'd say the size it accounts id about 4 microns max size, since most particle counts goes from 5 to 15 microns and the emissions spectography goes to the 1st third of its graphic particle count column spectrum, isn't it? And usual filters let those 5 to 15 microns harmful parts (that it doesn't perceives) to cirulare all over the engine making domino effect all day long. Look at the peak,of, severe and catastrophic wear just ahead of the emissions spectographic limit.

 

[Ohle_Manezzini]

I meant 9 microns max.