What's the reason Valvoline uses sodium?

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Originally Posted By: dave1251
Originally Posted By: SR5

G'day Dave1251, thanks for that mate. You have answered a question for me that I have had for quite some time.
So no Sodium in my A3/B4 DuraBlends, nice to know. Not that I have a problem with Na.

Good day to you mate. Hope the info was helpful and how is your spring down under?


Hi Dave1251, yes it's warming up nicely here. Beautiful blue sunny days. Winter is never that cold for me, but soon summer will hit and it will be just too hot.
 
Originally Posted By: userfriendly
Maybe its Valvoline engine armour with thermashield technology.

We get the synthetic technology Engine Armour in Australia. It's positioned above the old fashioned Valvoline XLD conventional, which is mostly for 20W-50 people. But below the DuraBlend and SynPower.

Speaking to the Valvoline techs on the phone, they call DuraBlend a semi-synthetic and it has a large amount of synthetic base oil in it. They call Engine Armour a synthetic technology oil and it has a small amount of synthetic base oil in it. It's like their "good" conventional oil in price and position.

From here:
http://investor.ashland.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=813139

Quote:
Valvoline's Engine Armour is a unique product in the market," said Keith Johnson, MEA general manager. "Its Thermal Shield additive technology superbly prevents the onset of oxidation of oil, which is the main cause of oil degradation in extreme temperatures. The product was tested against all major lubricants in the region and the results showed it outperformed comparative brands by 70 percent.
 
Patent: US5763369 A (Motor oil performance-enhancing formulation)
Ashland 1994

Quote:
According to the invention, combining some or all of the following components: oil soluble Molybdenum additive (Molyvan 855--Vanderbilt Chemical); ("Synthetic") polyalphaolefin (PAO) 4 cSt; PAO 6 cSt and/or synthetic diester (e.g., Chemaloy M-22A); PTFE (polytetrafluoroethylene colloidal dispersed product--Acheson Chemical) Dispersant Inhibitor (DI) package containing zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP), etc., (Chemaloy D-036); Mineral Oil Base Stock; Viscosity Index Improver (VI) (Shellvis 90-SBR); into a package for addition to conventional motor oil results in improved wear, oxidation resistance, viscosity stability, engine cleanliness, fuel economy, cold starting, and inhibited acid formation. It has been discovered that when added to the crankcase of an internal combustion, e.g., spark ignition (SI) engine at most preferably approximately 20-25 vol. % with the conventional crankcase lubricant, this provides synergistic performance improvement of the oil and engine. The formulation is compatible with engine warranty requirements, i.e.,service classification API SH.


Quote:
Though not narrowly critical, the DI is exemplified by those which contain alkyl zinc dithiophosphates, succinimide, or Mannich dispersants; calcium, magnesium, sulfonates, sodium sulfonates, phenolic and amine antioxidants, plus various friction modifiers such as sulfurized fatty acids.

Dispersant inhibitors are readily available from Lubrizol, Ethyl, Oronite, a division of Chevron Chemical, and Paramains, a division of Exxon Chemical Company.
 
So, ignore the Teflon, it was the 90's after all.

The two interesting things I see is sodium sulfonates probably the form of the sodium,
and various friction modifiers such as sulfurized fatty acids. Note PQIA don't test for sulphur anymore, so this may be the Valvoline secret sauce and the reason that the add pack looks light, when really it's just not being tested for.
 
This is one of those 'silly' patents that used to really annoy me!

First off, this patent isn't about sodium per se. There's only one mention of sodium in the entire document and that's part of generalised, cover-all statement about sulphonates being either calcium, magnesium or sodium based. You see this in virtually all engine oil formulation patents.

What this Ashland patent really says that if you take a rubbish low treat, OCP VII mineral oil 10W30, take out the mineral oil and replace it with PAO/Ester, take out the OCP and replace with Shellvis, add in a huge slug of Molyvan 855 (wonderful stuff!!) and finally throw in some emulsified PTFE (Teflon), then wonder of wonders, you get a better engine oil!! Wow, who knew? Oh, and said oil is going to cost three times as much as the original oil but we won't bother to mention that in case it puts people off.

I don't want to be unfair to Ashland as lots of other companies patent this kind of thing but there's nothing here of much interest.
 
Yeah, when reading it, I was thinking how can this be a patent? It just states the obvious and includes every possible ingredient: PAO & Esters, Zinc & Moly, Calcium & Magnesium & Sodium sulfonates, etc.

Add it all to your mineral base stock and it gets better.

However, it's the only Ashland patent I could find that includes Sodium. If we turn it around and assume that it list everything in the Valvoline arsenal and that it's still up to date (a big ask I grant you). Then what is says to me is that sodium is in the form of a sulfonates, and that the fiction modifier used instead of moly may be a sulfurized fatty acids, which may be confused as a Group 1 high sulfur base.

Valvoline is often criticized by some for having no moly in its VOA analysis, but as they say, it performs well in the trenches. Maybe this is the reason.
 
It is indeed curious. As far as I know, the only common, widely commercially available form of lube soluble sodium is low TBN 'natural' sodium sulphonate. It's been around forever and is, I think, widely used in cutting oils where lube/water compatibility is important and where a high soap content matters.

However I just can't see why you would use such a thing in a modern engine oil. Soap as a concept is meaningless in a gasoline engine (possibly it means more in a diesel but I'd still be sceptical). And if you did need soap (let's say it has miraculous friction reduction properties) then why not simply use low TBN neutral calcium or magnesium sulphonate which will be far cheaper and more widely available?

It might make more sense to use high TBN over-based sodium sulphonate (300 - 400 TBN) but when I Google these, no-one seems to make them. The closest I could get was Amoco's 400 TBN over-based Sodium 'Oxidate'/Sulphonate which in my mind might make sense on a cost-effectiveness basis.

I guess unless someone from Valvoline (or, more likely Lz) joins this thread and just comes out and tells us, I suspect we may never know what this sodium stuff is or what its function is...
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
It is indeed curious. As far as I know, the only common, widely commercially available form of lube soluble sodium is low TBN 'natural' sodium sulphonate. It's been around forever and is, I think, widely used in cutting oils where lube/water compatibility is important and where a high soap content matters.

However I just can't see why you would use such a thing in a modern engine oil. Soap as a concept is meaningless in a gasoline engine (possibly it means more in a diesel but I'd still be sceptical). And if you did need soap (let's say it has miraculous friction reduction properties) then why not simply use low TBN neutral calcium or magnesium sulphonate which will be far cheaper and more widely available?

It might make more sense to use high TBN over-based sodium sulphonate (300 - 400 TBN) but when I Google these, no-one seems to make them. The closest I could get was Amoco's 400 TBN over-based Sodium 'Oxidate'/Sulphonate which in my mind might make sense on a cost-effectiveness basis.

I guess unless someone from Valvoline (or, more likely Lz) joins this thread and just comes out and tells us, I suspect we may never know what this sodium stuff is or what its function is...





I can't speak for Valvoline (or Lz) but I have seen overbased sodium sulphonates used in metalworking fluids as well as the low TBN naturals that you mention. Based on that and some other literature I found that basically lumps Sodium Sulphonates in with Calcium and Magnesium ones in the detergent category...

Quote:
Common commercial detergents are derived from calcium, magnesium, sodium, and barium.

The metals are listed in order of preference. As mentioned, neutral detergents are made by reacting the acid substrate with a stoichiometric amount of the metal base, and overbased detergents are made by reacting the substrate with an excess amount of base in the presence of carbon dioxide. To make calcium and magnesium salts from natural sulfonic acids and alkylsalicylic acids, one must convert commercially available alkali metal (sodium and potassium) salts (see Figures 4.5 and 4.7) into free acids by reacting them with a mineral acid and then reacting the acids with magnesium oxide or calcium hydroxide. Alternatively, alkali metal salts can be converted directly into magnesium and calcium salts through a double-decomposition reaction with a metal halide, as shown in Figure 4.8. To make the natural sulfonate detergent, one must react the mahogany acid soap with a metal halide such as calcium chloride. The reaction converts the sodium sulfonate soap into calcium sulfonate, which can be overbased if desired. Because of the extensive branching, petroleumderived sulfonates have better oil solubility than synthetic sulfonates of similar molecular weight.
Figure 4.9 presents the idealized structures of neutral detergents.
To make overbased detergents, one can use either a two-step process or a one-step process. Generally, the one-step process is preferred over the two-step process. In the two-step process, the neutral salt or the soap is made fi rst, which is subsequently overbased. In the one-step process, the excess metal base is charged to the reaction; once the neutral salt formation is complete, carbon dioxide blowing (carbonation) of the reaction is initiated. When carbon dioxide uptake stops, the reaction is considered complete and it is worked up to isolate the product. Figure 4.10 summarizes the two processes. For making overbased natural sulfonates and alkylsalicylates, one can double-decompose alkali metal salts in situ by reacting with a metal halide and overbasing.
The alkali metal halide by-product need not be removed until the overbasing is complete. It comes out during the final filtration, which is employed to remove any unreacted excess base and other particulate materials.


Quote:

A natural or synthetic sulfonate can be neutralized and overbased with various cations depending on the application. For example:
Sodium sulfonate. In general, the high equivalent weight (500–550 EW) petroleum or (390–700 EW) synthetic alkylbenzene sulfonic acids are neutralized with NaOH to form sodium sulfonates, which are commonly used in soluble oils for metalworking applications, where the divalent cations (Mg, Ca, and Ba) are detrimental to the stability of the soluble oil. The sodium salts of the synthetic dialkyl naphthalene sulfonates have been used, but their high cost has limited their use in this application.


This looks to be close to the process you described. As far as availability goes - my experience has been that the major Addco's (except maybe Afton) are not really forthcoming with making their product lineups available via google.

I'd venture a guess that it's probably detergent over Friction Modifier functionality - although there may be some ancillary benefits in AW behavior where other active sulfur may be present.
 
Thanks Solarent, very interesting.

I don't think anybody makes a pure Na detergent PCMO. Recall in the PQIA VOA analysis of Valvoline SynPower it has 2100 ppm Ca, 460 ppm Na, and no Mg or Mo. So it's not just Sodium, it's a combination of Na (+) and Ca (2+) ions. Just to state the obvious.

Just a complete guess here, but would some Na detergent be better for cars that are short tripped and have condensation build up ? So a bit of Na just to help with water, but most of the heavy lifting is done by the Ca ?
 
Yes you are correct - I don't think I've ever seen Sodium without the Calcium - as the packages from the Addco's are usually a mixture this makes sense.
Further to your question, Na detergents appear to be really good on deposit clean-up and in theory could help with water (if you are ok with small amount of emulsion) but too much - ie over 500ppm of sodium might cause issues in applications where a lot of water is getting in... I'm thinking bulk storage where water contamination is a factor.
 
Originally Posted By: leeaspell
I just took a swally of vwb and one of rotella, I can't tell which one is saltier than the other


Well you would need sodium ions and that takes some water... Maybe make a mixed drink?
 
This is a useful Valvoline SynPower spec sheet. [SynPower PDF]

It's from Valvoline USA and fairly up to date (effective 30 Oct 2015), it includes data from both the ILSAC grades and the Euro grades. It give quite a bit of info: TBN, NOACK, SA, Zinc, HTHS (Euro), etc.

It's interesting to note that the ILSAC grades contain both Na and Ca detergent, while the Euro grades only contain Ca detergent. This is consistent with what others have said.

For example the ILSAC 5W30 (SN, GF-5, Dexos1) has
TBN = 8.7
NOACK % = 10
SA = 0.93
Zinc wt% = 0.083
Sodium wt% = 0.049
Calcium wt% = 0.211

While the mid-SAPS Euro 5W30 MST (SN, C3, Dexos2, BMW LL-04)
TBN = 7
NOACK % = 9
SA = 0.78
Zinc wt% = 0.084
Calcium wt% = 0.193

The full SAPS SynPower 5W40 HST (SN, A3/B4, BMW LL-01)
TBN = 10
NOACK % = 10
SA = 1.26
Zinc wt% = 0.099
Calcium wt% = 0.326
 
I suspect I now have the what and the why sussed...

The sodium in Valvoline's oil comes not from natural sodium sulphonate but over-based (high TBN) synthetic sodium sulphonate.

The why is revealed in a couple of patents from Exxon & Lubrizol. They seem to have been experimenting with three-way detergent systems that mix up calcium, magnesium and sodium with a view to identifying optimum ratios of each detergent for specific tests.

In this Exxon patent, they claim to get an optimum (ie minimum) level of TEOST deposits with a mix of calcium, magnesium & sodium 400 TBN sulphonates.

http://www.google.co.uk/patents/US5804537

I think the Valvoline oil just contains calcium and sodium so they are using a simple binary system but the principle still probably applies.

So this looks like a simple detergent/deposit thing with probably nothing to do with friction reduction.

For what it's worth, I still reckon this kind of over-complication of oil formulations isn't worth a candle. What might be optimal for one viscosity grade may not be optimal for another. Ditto different base oil/VII combos. It will be interesting to see if this kind of thing survives the transition to GF-6.
 
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