use Shell Helix Ultra 5w-40 in diesel engine?

[nyumski]

halo Bitog...

i use my car shown in my sig, it is diesel engine and yesterday i got low price shell helix ultra 5w40 in my area..

so i am asking can i use this oil in diesel engine? since it shows MB 229.5 and acea A3/B4...

can i use at least 10000 km? i usually reach that mileage in about 6 months

 

[Jetronic]

doesn't that 2014 car hae a DPF?

if it doesn't have a DPF, you can use that oil without concern.

 

[nyumski]

Originally Posted By: Jetronic
doesn't that 2014 car hae a DPF?

if it doesn't have a DPF, you can use that oil without concern.


i am in asia, it is very rare using dpf here

no dpf, no egr, no catalytic

 

[Olas]

ACEA thinks its ok to use..

"ACEA A3/B3 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance gasoline engines and car & light van diesel engines and/or for extended drain intervals where specified by the engine manufacturer, and/or for year-round use of low viscosity oils, and/or for severe operating conditions as defined by the engine manufacturer.

ACEA A3/B4 Stable, stay-in-grade oil intended for use in high performance gasoline and direct injection diesel engines, but also suitable for applications described under A3/B3."

 

[Popsy]

SHU 5W40 is totally ok to use in a diesel. I used some in mine. It is a really good oil with GTL base.

 

[dexos]

Go head!

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: nyumski
halo Bitog...

i use my car shown in my sig, it is diesel engine and yesterday i got low price shell helix ultra 5w40 in my area..

so i am asking can i use this oil in diesel engine? since it shows MB 229.5 and acea A3/B4...

can i use at least 10000 km? i usually reach that mileage in about 6 months


Why not look in your owners manual for the API/Acea specs ??

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: nyumski
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
doesn't that 2014 car hae a DPF?

if it doesn't have a DPF, you can use that oil without concern.


i am in asia, it is very rare using dpf here

no dpf, no egr, no catalytic


Without a DPF etc you should be fine. In light duty diesels most people run a ACEA C3 oil, which is a low SAPS version of a A3/B4 oil. The low SAPS is only to protect the DPF.

You should be able to go 10,000 KM on a C3 oil, so a higher SAPS and higher TBN A3/B4 oil could go even further, say 15,000KM. It all depends on how much sulphur is in the fuel.

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: Popsy
SHU 5W40 is totally ok to use in a diesel. I used some in mine. It is a really good oil with GTL base.


Yes it's one great oil and my UOA results from a 1.9 TDI are almost as good as LM Synthoil High Tech 5w40 (A3/B4), BUT if you need a C3 for the DPF afflicted, there is an Ultra 0w40 with that spec. If you add half a can of Ceratec every OCI it will make up for the missing Zinc.

 

[UltrafanUK]

There is no real difference in how long a C3 or A3/B4 oil will last, it depends more on how much detergents the oil has, or how much it gets contaminated by fuel in particular.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
There is no real difference in how long a C3 or A3/B4 oil will last, it depends more on how much detergents the oil has, or how much it gets contaminated by fuel in particular.


According to the ACEA Sequences, a A3/B4 oil needs a TBN or 10 or more, a C3 oil needs a TBN of 6 or more. But the lower SAPS limit on the C3 oils usually means the TBN can't go too much above 7.5 from what I have seen in data sheets.

For example (according to the PDF), Valvoline SynPower GF-5 ILSAC grades have a TBN of 8.7 and SynPower 5W40 A3/B4 has a TBN of 10, while SynPower 5W40 C3 has a TBN of 7. These seem fairly typical values to me.

 

[dexos]

Mid Saps oils (ACEA C3) don't need a TBN value so high (less reserve alkalinity), because they acidify less.

 

[SR5]

I thought the biggest cause of acid in the oil was from the sulphur in the fuel. When Europe went to very low sulphur fuel then they could go from high SAPS & high TBN A3/B4 oils to mid SAPS & mid TBN C3 oils and keep the oil change interval the same.

The OP is in Asia, and I'm not sure about his fuel sulphur levels. But it's probably not as low as Europe and therefore a higher TBN will allow a longer oil change interval.

 

[UltrafanUK]

Originally Posted By: SR5
I thought the biggest cause of acid in the oil was from the sulphur in the fuel. When Europe went to very low sulphur fuel then they could go from high SAPS & high TBN A3/B4 oils to mid SAPS & mid TBN C3 oils and keep the oil change interval the same.

The OP is in Asia, and I'm not sure about his fuel sulphur levels. But it's probably not as low as Europe and therefore a higher TBN will allow a longer oil change interval.


You can't relate TBN directly to how long the detergents last unless you are comparing the same type of detergents. It's the TBN loss rate that is more important and how that relates to the TAN.

I just add up the Ca, Mg and Na figures to get a rough idea of the total detergents available in a new oil.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK

I just add up the Ca, Mg and Na figures to get a rough idea of the total detergents available in a new oil.

I agree, but this is reflected in the TBN. As the detergents go up, the TBN goes up (probably non-linear, but I'm not sure). Higher TBN from more detergents = longer oil change interval.

Again take Valvoline SynPower 5W-40, it comes in two versions, the MST 5W-40 that is mid SAPS and ACEA C3, the HST 5W-40 which is high SAPS and ACEA A3/B4.

Lets look at the figures from Valvoline [SynPower PDF]

MST 5W40 C3
Sulfated Ash = 0.78
Calcium wt% = 0.193
TBN = 7

HST 5W40 A3/B4
Sulfated Ash = 1.26
Calcium wt% = 0.326
TBN = 10

 

[UltrafanUK]

Umm, how long an oil lasts does not relate directly with the VOA TBN, it is much more related to the UOA TBN.
Mg detergents last longer, but are less effective in the rings.

 

[SR5]

Yeah sure, each detergent has pro's and con's, and the best way to decide it's use in the field is to do a VOA then use it then do a UOA. Repeat for the next oil formulation. some formulations have better TBN retention than other formulas, I don't think anybody will deny that. However, TBN is the usual first order metric to gauge how long an oil can last in the field. It's not perfect, but it's measured and tabulated for a reason.

Also from what I can tell, most big oil companies don't make their own add packs, they buy these from other companies like Lz or Afton, and then add them to their base oil at different rates. If the same add pack (or packs, sometimes a secondary booster pack is used) is used in multiple oils by a company and added to the same (or similar) base oil to produce a C3 oil, then more is added to make it an A3/B3 oil then more again for a A3/B4 oil. Then yes, the A3/B4 oil will have a higher TBN and should last longer in the field.

From Afton, additive HiTEC 9388X [Afton Add Pack]
Quote:

Recommended Dosage
The recommended treat rates are as follows:
Either:
HiTEC® 9388X – ACEA A3/B4-10 @ 11.2%
Or:
HiTEC® 9387X – ACEA A3/B3-10 @ 10.4%
+ HiTEC® 9559 Booster @ 1.1%
For API SN or RN0700, add HiTEC® 9552 booster @ 0.2%


From the HiTEC 9387/88 series of additives [Afton Link] , they use this diagram

They also talk about the logistical simplicity of only having a few additive packages to make all your oil products.

You said:
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
There is no real difference in how long a C3 or A3/B4 oil will last

And I respectfully disagree, especially if the oils come from the same manufacturer and are using the same add pack at a different dose rate, or the standard add with a booster add thrown on top.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Umm, how long an oil lasts does not relate directly with the VOA TBN, it is much more related to the UOA TBN.
Mg detergents last longer, but are less effective in the rings.


BTW given these two synthetic Valvoline oils below, one C3 and the other A3/B4, both with pure Ca detergents (nothing else). Which do you think will last longer in the field? Or is impossible to tell with the data given ?

Originally Posted By: SR5

Valvoline SynPower MST 5W40, ACEA C3
Sulfated Ash = 0.78
Calcium wt% = 0.193
TBN = 7

Valvoline SynPower HST 5W40, ACEA A3/B4
Sulfated Ash = 1.26
Calcium wt% = 0.326
TBN = 10

 

[UltrafanUK]

The higher TBN oil should last longer in active detergent terms as they only use Calcium based detergents.

Oddly enough I had a chat with Castrol R&D in the UK some years ago and they insist that a C3 is backwards compatible with an A3/B4 oil, BUT the Germans in Liqui Moly disagree and insist that is not true in a TDI. So I did a run with Castrol Edge 5w40 (C3) and it doubled all the wear metals, although the TBN was the same as Edge 5w40 (A3/B4), so that wear was not due to lack of detergents.

 

[SR5]

Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK

Oddly enough I had a chat with Castrol R&D in the UK some years ago and they insist that a C3 is backwards compatible with an A3/B4 oil, BUT the Germans in Liqui Moly disagree and insist that is not true in a TDI. So I did a run with Castrol Edge 5w40 (C3) and it doubled all the wear metals, although the TBN was the same as Edge 5w40 (A3/B4), so that wear was not due to lack of detergents.


Good morning UltrafanUK,
Yeah Valvoline Australia sort of say the same thing as Castrol UK, but when I pushed them for details on the issue, they become quite evasive in their answers and could give no firm details.

I think for most people with good low sulphur fuel, they are close enough to be suitable for the application, but as Liqui Moly say they aren't the same, and as you have shown there are applications where they don't work quite the same. All bets are off with high sulphur fuel.

Anyway, nice talking to you, but it's going home time for me. Have a good one !!