Sludge Advice

[wally21]

So, I have a 2005 Saab 9-5 aero wagon (~160k mi) that I bought used in 2012. For those of you who are familiar with these cars, you know that they can be especially hard on oil, and certain model years are prone to sludge. My understanding is that they updated the pcv system on them in '04 and revised the oil type and oci recommendations, which largely fixed the issue. I've seen people drop the pans on '04 and later models, and they're sparkling clean.

I have an '05, have been very conservative with my oci's (~3-5k) and have used good 0w-40 synthetic oil, so I should be in the clear, right? Well I decided to give myself some assurance when I changed my oil over the weekend, so I bought a USB borescope and looked into the pan and discovered something that approximated this. (I don't have any actual pictures.)

I could see parts that looked to be fairly clean metal, but some parts were black as night. It sure looks like I have some sludge.

The only thing that I can figure is that the previous owner was pretty careless about oci's and maybe didn't use good enough oil. It did come to me by way of a sheriff's auction.

So, what do I do? I know that the obvious answer is to drop the pan and clean it myself, but that's probably not going to happen. I'm fairly handy, but I have two young kids and a wife who will only tolerate so much "tinkering" with the car, no matter how important. I also don't have a garage.

I could take it to my mechanic, but I'm thinking that this could be a fairly costly thing to have him do. Are there other options? From what I've read, the biggest concern is build up on the pickup screen. If this gets clogged, then the engine is toast. Oil cleaners seem a bit snake oil-ish, but could something like that work here? My biggest concern with this approach is that the cleaner would dislodge some crud, and that would clog up some critical component, doing more damage than just leaving it alone.

I really like this car and want it to last for as long as it can. Thoughts and/or suggestions?

 

[RooflessVW]

If you never would have looked in the pan, you never would have had a problem.

I would... Leave it.

 

[ET16]

My Saab indie shop does a BG oil treatment/flush service and then drops the pan to take care of any debris that might block the pickup.

I have an 05 9-5 Arc. It was using a little more oil than I liked, so I ran a bottle of Auto-RX that I had. It seemed to work.

 

[wally21]

Originally Posted By: ET16
My Saab indie shop does a BG oil treatment/flush service and then drops the pan to take care of any debris that might block the pickup.

I have an 05 9-5 Arc. It was using a little more oil than I liked, so I ran a bottle of Auto-RX that I had. It seemed to work.


Do you mind me asking how much they charge for that?

 

[krismoriah72]

If it aint broke dont fix it..however since u really like this car and have took the time to get a boroscope and also posting what to do... i think you need piece of mind.

You bought it used, you have driven it 4 years.. so u are still ahead of the game cost wise if u had bought it new.

I would for your piece of mind have the pan dropped and look at the pan and screen yourself once its removed.

 

[Trav]

I can give you my method of cleaning sludge engines without dropping the pan, it works good but you must follow directions exactly and be careful.
You will need to remove the valve cover to clean under it and the head, the rest of the engine stays together, you will need to put the cr up for a couple of days.
First buy 2 gallons of this..

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/gunk-...CFYhbhgod-skKAQ

You will also need a thin funnel that fits down the dipstick tub, a cheap stiff nylon bristle parts cleaning brush and a gallon of kerosene.

https://www.jbtoolsales.com/atd-tools-85...CFYpehgodIDgCQA

With the car on a level surface.
1) Drain the oil and replace the drain plug.

2) Fill the crankcase with 4qts of the cleaner through the dipstick tube only, do not fill through the valve cover, you want the cleaner in the pan not on any seals or gaskets. This cleaner must remain in the pan at least 24 hrs preferably longer like 48.

3) When the time has passed drain the cleaner into a pan and dispose of it properly and replace the drain plug.

4 )Remove the valve cover and using the next gallon of cleaner wet the head trying to avoid the valve springs and seals as much as possible, leave it for an hour.
Using the brush to clean the head and keep dipping the brush in the cleaner.

5 )When its clean flush it down thoroughly with kerosene allowing almost the whole gallon to go into the pan, save a bit to use with the cleaner for the inside of the valve cover.

6) Clean the cover and refit. Drain the pan and fill with the cheapest dino oil you can buy, don't replace the filter just now.

7) Run the engine 10-15 min and change the oil again with cheap stuff and change the filter.

8) Do a 100 mi OCI and fill it with a good synthetic and new filter.

This will get it clean enough so no chunks break off and clog the pickup, it will be fairly clean but you will need to do shorter OCI to finish the job.
.

 

[bigt61]

Keep doing what you're doing with the 0W-40 synthetic. It will clean itself in time. No big deal as long as it maintains satisfactory oil pressure.

 

[Donald]

Pull a valve cover and have a look. Before you go crazy about the sludge.

You can try what Trav suggests.

Auto-Rx.

Run Napa or ST synthetic for a few 3k OCI.

 

[Leo99]

Worse case, when will this alleged sludge cause a problem? In another 100k miles? Something else might kill the car by then.

I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[turnbowm]

Originally Posted By: wally21
So, I have a 2005 Saab 9-5 aero wagon (~160k mi) that I bought used in 2012. For those of you who are familiar with these cars, you know that they can be especially hard on oil, and certain model years are prone to sludge. My understanding is that they updated the pcv system on them in '04 and revised the oil type and oci recommendations, which largely fixed the issue. I've seen people drop the pans on '04 and later models, and they're sparkling clean.

I have an '05, have been very conservative with my oci's (~3-5k) and have used good 0w-40 synthetic oil, so I should be in the clear, right? Well I decided to give myself some assurance when I changed my oil over the weekend, so I bought a USB borescope and looked into the pan and discovered something that approximated this. (I don't have any actual pictures.


What synthetic oil and oil filter have you been using? After 5years of 3-5K OCIs with a good synthetic oil and oil filter, there should be no (or very little) sludge despite previous owner's neglect.

 

[zzyzzx]

Go visit Toyotanation.com. I understand that they are experts on this issue.

 

[gallydif]

LC20 lube control

 

[UltrafanUK]

If it is easy to drop the pan, then clean it and the critical oil pump intake screen. Then fill with a cheap dino and filter before using a flush additive that is designed for use at idle just before an oil & filter change. Amsoil and Liqui Moly both make real good idle use oil flushes. Do not use a drive around oil scourer as they are more risky in terms of blocking the oil filter in particular.

Once the flush has been used, fill with your favourite major brand full synthetic, BUT keep the right OCI down to only 3000 miles max AND keep an eye out for signs of coolant loss or Mayo on the dipstick, just in case the sludge was caused by anti freeze reacting with the detergents in the oil.

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: Donald
Pull a valve cover and have a look. Before you go crazy about the sludge.

You can try what Trav suggests.

Auto-Rx.

Run Napa or ST synthetic for a few 3k OCI.


Exactly. The method I use is only for confirmed sludge, I have done a few Honda's this way with confirmed results (I did drop the pan after 1K).

 

[jayg]

Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: wally21
So, I have a 2005 Saab 9-5 aero wagon (~160k mi) that I bought used in 2012. For those of you who are familiar with these cars, you know that they can be especially hard on oil, and certain model years are prone to sludge. My understanding is that they updated the pcv system on them in '04 and revised the oil type and oci recommendations, which largely fixed the issue. I've seen people drop the pans on '04 and later models, and they're sparkling clean.

I have an '05, have been very conservative with my oci's (~3-5k) and have used good 0w-40 synthetic oil, so I should be in the clear, right? Well I decided to give myself some assurance when I changed my oil over the weekend, so I bought a USB borescope and looked into the pan and discovered something that approximated this. (I don't have any actual pictures.


What synthetic oil and oil filter have you been using? After 5years of 3-5K OCIs with a good synthetic oil and oil filter, there should be no (or very little) sludge despite previous owner's neglect.


Previous staining and large buildups of sludge would need to be cleaned manually since that's not something that would make it to the filter.

I'm in the "keep doing what you are doing camp". I wouldn't run any kind of cleaning products through the center section of my turbocharger. Essentially all 0w40's are good oils, so really any of them would be up to the task of 3-5k oil changes. If anything, I'd run at LEAST 5k on a full synthetic 0w40 before dumping it. Let it do it's work.

 

[turnbowm]

Originally Posted By: jayg
Originally Posted By: turnbowm
Originally Posted By: wally21
So, I have a 2005 Saab 9-5 aero wagon (~160k mi) that I bought used in 2012. For those of you who are familiar with these cars, you know that they can be especially hard on oil, and certain model years are prone to sludge. My understanding is that they updated the pcv system on them in '04 and revised the oil type and oci recommendations, which largely fixed the issue. I've seen people drop the pans on '04 and later models, and they're sparkling clean.

I have an '05, have been very conservative with my oci's (~3-5k) and have used good 0w-40 synthetic oil, so I should be in the clear, right? Well I decided to give myself some assurance when I changed my oil over the weekend, so I bought a USB borescope and looked into the pan and discovered something that approximated this. (I don't have any actual pictures.


What synthetic oil and oil filter have you been using? After 5years of 3-5K OCIs with a good synthetic oil and oil filter, there should be no (or very little) sludge despite previous owner's neglect.


Previous staining and large buildups of sludge would need to be cleaned manually since that's not something that would make it to the filter.


Over time, a high-quality GF-5 synthetic oil will slowly dissolve sludge, keeping it in suspension until the next oil change. A few ago, VW had a big sludge problem with their 2.0L and their solution to the problem was an immediate switch from a conventional (dino) oil to a high-detergent synthetic oil. It worked for them and might well work for the OP.

 

[jayg]

Originally Posted By: turnbowm


Over time, a high-quality GF-5 synthetic oil will slowly dissolve sludge, keeping it in suspension until the next oil change. A few ago, VW had a big sludge problem with their 2.0L and their solution to the problem was an immediate switch from a conventional (dino) oil to a high-detergent synthetic oil. It worked for them and might well work for the OP.


I am talking about heavy thick sludge that is in every nook and cranny of an oil pan, rockers, etc. If he has already been using 0w40 quality full synthetics AND had short intervals, any sludge that is still in there isn't coming out by just changing oil brands. He would need the pan and valve covers off and clean it manually.

That being said, without seeing inside the motor, there is no way to tell what is really going on in there. If it is minor sludge, keep doing what you've been doing.

 

[meborder]

When did the sludge that has been there since you bought the car become a problem for you?

Answer: When you got your bore scope, and not a minute before.

Just change your oil and drive your car.
Let sleeping dogs lie.

 

[B320i]

I agree with the sentiments of LEAVING this issue. You've had the car for about 5 years, changing frequently with a good oil, and nothing is amiss.

The only suggestion might be using an oil like Rotella, that seems to be a common recommendation on sites like SaabCentral. Even then, however, if several years worth of short-changed synthetic hasn't made the engine perfect, perhaps nothing will.

Keep using a good oil, and don't push the intervals too far.

 

[BrocLuno]

Saab's are unique to this. I have one too. The CAT is right under/next to the pan so they heat-soak the oil and build coke. That black in the corner of the pan in the foto is the cooked oil. The screen will plug and the oil pressure goes down slowly until the engine dies.

They are very nice car (otherwise I would not have one). They're quick, fast and capable. I'll bet the wife loves the Aero

So first thing to do is join the Saab groups and read more about pan drops. Next to do the logistics on a pan drop. I'll bet a local independent shop that has worked on Saab's will give you a decent quote on a pan drop. And, I'll bet they'll get it out in a day easy

Baring that, I'd run a can of BG109 with each oil change until that happens. I do it in mine and so far, it stays pretty clean. I have a little over a 140K and running.

I run Rotella T6 5W-40 and a Fram TG1300 or equal (Napa/WIX). It can use the extra media area.

Lastly, you might have a shop do an oil pressure test. If it's Ok, just keep using the BG109. If it's low, you know you need a pan drop ...

This is not regular sludge. It's actually not sludge, but coke from baking the oil. There will not be any issues under the valve cover. Old school engine flushes and such are useless.