Magnets on an oil filter

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: sprite1741
That magnet will trap particles on the dirty side of the filter in a big clump. A large volume of flowing oil is concentrated in a small area. If the filter has an internal bypass and it opens, like on a cold start some that material could be pulled right past the filter into the engine. As the magnet saturates, the crud farther away from the magnet is not held on by as much force. Many manufactures including GM install a magnetic drain plug as OEM equipment. The oil settles in the sump and the magnet will hold the particles just fine. Plus easy to see a problem during oil change. Put the magnet on the filter at your own risk. The bad possibility outweighs the good.



Ive seen this scenario described before - not sure I subscribe.

The particles that are trapped are rarely to never caught in one pass in that they are so small they simply go through your filter anyway so your filter isn't stopping them. to begin with.

Second is "big clumps" wont stick to the filter media without pressure either, and will fall into suspension when you kill the engine - Only to be stirred back up and out the bypass when you fire the cold engine oil combo next round.

You are better off With a magnet to try to catch and hold it either way in both scenarios

The magnet can only help either situation.

 

[UncleDave]

Incidentally I run no bypasses in any marine engines so a path through the filter is the only one available to the oil.

UD

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
My only concern with a magnet on the filter is if some of the magnetized ferrous metal should find its way out of the filter. Then it could get circulated back into the system and collect somewhere on ferrous metal and cause some damage. I read about this several years ago, and it made sense.



This seems to me to be a contrived issue.

IF you've ever magnetized anything it takes lots of unidirectional strokes across a magnet face of something like a needle to pick up any magnetism.

Any debris that gets close enough to be attracted isn't going to unidirectionally rub itself across the magnet face for long enough to get magnetized - because its stuck to the spot.

UD


I have a magnetic drain plug. It doesn't seem to be especially strong.

Material removed from it adopts the characteristic "whiskery" appearance on an un-magnetised paper clip.

This strongly suggests to me that the debris has become magnetised on the drain plug.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
My only concern with a magnet on the filter is if some of the magnetized ferrous metal should find its way out of the filter. Then it could get circulated back into the system and collect somewhere on ferrous metal and cause some damage. I read about this several years ago, and it made sense.



This seems to me to be a contrived issue.

IF you've ever magnetized anything it takes lots of unidirectional strokes across a magnet face of something like a needle to pick up any magnetism.

Any debris that gets close enough to be attracted isn't going to unidirectionally rub itself across the magnet face for long enough to get magnetized - because its stuck to the spot.

Finally after you manage to magnetize something purposefully - its very temporary and very effected by heat.

As for loosening clumps I haven't seen any evidence of that with engines far more powerful flowing far more oil, than the street cars people have there.

Try the can full of bbs test your self and look at how hard these magnets attract - you can't shake them loose purposefully regardless of how vou try.

Be it drain plugs, or filter bands or both - a magnet is one of the few additions that can't hurt and can only help.

UD


I was referring to an article I read some time ago, it had some good points for and against the use, so I tossed it other there. I used one for a while, and when it starting losing power I tossed it and didn't bother replacing it. I think a magnetic drain plug is a better choice.


I'd be interested to see that article.

The link below is the only other acknowledgement I've seen that there is a potential downside to these things.

Certainly I don't recall it being mentioned in any other discussion of magnetic "filtration" (unless I mentioned it.)

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/781/particle-contamination

"Magnetic Susceptibility. Permanent magnets are used in some filters and online wear particle sensors. Particles of iron or steel that are attracted to a magnetic field are preferentially separated from the oil by these devices. Later, any particles that may have sloughed off these separators and sensors (due to shock or surge flow conditions) are often left magnetized. They can then magnetically grip onto steel orifices, glands and oilways restricting flow or simply interfering with machine part movement.

Additionally, directional control and servo valves commonly used in hydraulic systems deploy the use of electro magnets in their solenoids. The actuation of these valves can be adversely affected by the magnetic susceptibility of iron and steel particles that are attracted by the solenoid."

I don't really want to believe anyone who writes "deploy the use of" instead of "use", but still...

 

[DBMaster]

Car engines have glands?

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Car engines have glands?


Sure. Where else would the testosterone come from?

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: Ducked


I'd be interested to see that article.

The link below is the only other acknowledgement I've seen that there is a potential downside to these things.

Certainly I don't recall it being mentioned in any other discussion of magnetic "filtration" (unless I mentioned it.)

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/781/particle-contamination

"Magnetic Susceptibility. Permanent magnets are used in some filters and online wear particle sensors. Particles of iron or steel that are attracted to a magnetic field are preferentially separated from the oil by these devices. Later, any particles that may have sloughed off these separators and sensors (due to shock or surge flow conditions) are often left magnetized. They can then magnetically grip onto steel orifices, glands and oilways restricting flow or simply interfering with machine part movement.

Additionally, directional control and servo valves commonly used in hydraulic systems deploy the use of electro magnets in their solenoids. The actuation of these valves can be adversely affected by the magnetic susceptibility of iron and steel particles that are attracted by the solenoid."

I don't really want to believe anyone who writes "deploy the use of" instead of "use", but still...



Ive read that article, and I love that magazine. Noria also actually suggests active very controversial practice on this board - looking at your oil.

I tested the magnetized particle theory myself with a filter I ran a filtermag on for about 7K then cut open.

Once I pulled the mag off the can I couldn't tell where the residue was originally at as it all fell off and none of it stuck to the can in the outline of the mag.

If you go look up filtermag cut pictures you always see a pict of the mag still on the can itself still holding the debris- if this weren't there, the debris would simply fall off.

UD

 

[UncleDave]

The guys on the honda forums were asking me about magnetic drain plugs and I showed them what I got after a fairy long run

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko_lwhe8Bgo

not in this video but I dragged a nail through the stuff I wipe off of magnetic drain plugs after cleaning them with gasoline, and the nail doesn't pick up anything

I would say that magnetization can/could happen I have not seen it in my own tests.


UD

 

[UncleDave]

http://www.fz09.org/forum/6-fz-09-general-discussion/1437-cut-open-filter-my-first-oil-change.html

Heres an article and pict - notice the trail of previously held particles sliding down the can when the mag is removed - definitely NOT magnetized.



UD

 

[901Memphis]

I don't have to worry about the particles coming loose on the dirty side of the filter during bypass because my filter is GM with no internal bypass.

 

[ZeeOSix]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave

http://www.fz09.org/forum/6-fz-09-general-discussion/1437-cut-open-filter-my-first-oil-change.html

Heres an article and pict - notice the trail of previously held particles sliding down the can when the mag is removed - definitely NOT magnetized.

UD


Dang, that's a lot of aluminum particles in the oil filter on the FZ-09 oil change. I did the 1st oil change on my new XSR900 at 600 miles and there was hardly any particles in the oil filter ... and I broke it in relatively hard.

 

[Ducked]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave


Heres an article and pict - notice the trail of previously held particles sliding down the can when the mag is removed - definitely NOT magnetized.



UD


No direct contact of particles with magnet surface in that situation.

Maybe that makes a difference relative to a magnetic drain plug?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: UncleDave
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
My only concern with a magnet on the filter is if some of the magnetized ferrous metal should find its way out of the filter. Then it could get circulated back into the system and collect somewhere on ferrous metal and cause some damage. I read about this several years ago, and it made sense.



This seems to me to be a contrived issue.

IF you've ever magnetized anything it takes lots of unidirectional strokes across a magnet face of something like a needle to pick up any magnetism.

Any debris that gets close enough to be attracted isn't going to unidirectionally rub itself across the magnet face for long enough to get magnetized - because its stuck to the spot.

Finally after you manage to magnetize something purposefully - its very temporary and very effected by heat.

As for loosening clumps I haven't seen any evidence of that with engines far more powerful flowing far more oil, than the street cars people have there.

Try the can full of bbs test your self and look at how hard these magnets attract - you can't shake them loose purposefully regardless of how vou try.

Be it drain plugs, or filter bands or both - a magnet is one of the few additions that can't hurt and can only help.

UD


I was referring to an article I read some time ago, it had some good points for and against the use, so I tossed it other there. I used one for a while, and when it starting losing power I tossed it and didn't bother replacing it. I think a magnetic drain plug is a better choice.


I'd be interested to see that article.

The link below is the only other acknowledgement I've seen that there is a potential downside to these things.

Certainly I don't recall it being mentioned in any other discussion of magnetic "filtration" (unless I mentioned it.)

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/781/particle-contamination

"Magnetic Susceptibility. Permanent magnets are used in some filters and online wear particle sensors. Particles of iron or steel that are attracted to a magnetic field are preferentially separated from the oil by these devices. Later, any particles that may have sloughed off these separators and sensors (due to shock or surge flow conditions) are often left magnetized. They can then magnetically grip onto steel orifices, glands and oilways restricting flow or simply interfering with machine part movement.

Additionally, directional control and servo valves commonly used in hydraulic systems deploy the use of electro magnets in their solenoids. The actuation of these valves can be adversely affected by the magnetic susceptibility of iron and steel particles that are attracted by the solenoid."

I don't really want to believe anyone who writes "deploy the use of" instead of "use", but still...


I wish I could find the article, it was quite a while ago, probably prompted by a thread here many years ago discussing this topic. It was also mentioned here as a concern with magnetizing wear metals and the possibility of a problem. The article contained statements similar to what yours does, only it pertained to filter magnets. Metal can become magnetized and come loose and attach to parts you don't want it to. Fooling around with magnets as a kid made me realize this might be possible. Like I said the magnet I was using weakened with age and I tossed it.

A search on Bitog might turn up discussions on filter magnets similar to what we're discussing here. I think a magnetic drain plug is a safer bet than a filter magnet.

This discussion and Uncle Dave's comments peaked my interest again. Good stuff!

 

[Ohle_Manezzini]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
That's why you should use a strong magnet.


Strong magnets become weaker with time unfortunately, which was also discussed way back when I looked into it.


Neodimio don't get weak, that's why you should use a Rare Earth strong Magnet.

 

[Ohle_Manezzini]

Originally Posted By: UncleDave


http://www.fz09.org/forum/6-fz-09-general-discussion/1437-cut-open-filter-my-first-oil-change.html

Heres an article and pict - notice the trail of previously held particles sliding down the can when the mag is removed - definitely NOT magnetized.



UD


This is because Carbon particles are diamagnetic, it only act as magnetized inside a magnetic field. Appart from the magnetic field they are not magnetized anymore. Now you see it wasn't ferrous materia, just carbon that slid down the can.

 

[DBMaster]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Car engines have glands?


Sure. Where else would the testosterone come from?

LOL. I do recall that during my college years we used to call this car the Ferrari "Testosterosa."

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: ZeeOSix
Dang, that's a lot of aluminum particles in the oil filter on the FZ-09 oil change. I did the 1st oil change on my new XSR900 at 600 miles and there was hardly any particles in the oil filter ... and I broke it in relatively hard.


Aluminum? What makes you think they are aluminum?

 

[demarpaint]

Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
That's why you should use a strong magnet.


Strong magnets become weaker with time unfortunately, which was also discussed way back when I looked into it.


Neodimio don't get weak, that's why you should use a Rare Earth strong Magnet.


I used a magnet made specifically for oil filters, which fit on the top of the filter. After about 2 years it started losing strength, so much so that I could tell by how much easier it was to remove from the filter and the chassis of my van where I stuck it when I changed the filter. Maybe they used a lesser quality magnet, I tossed it. I've driven for over 40 years w/o engine issues so a filter magnet isn't a must have item for me.

Computer HDD magnets seem to be very strong and have been retaining their strength. I stick them on my tool box to post notes to myself, they're still very strong. I wonder how they'll hold up to engine heat?

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: Ducked
Originally Posted By: UncleDave


Heres an article and pict - notice the trail of previously held particles sliding down the can when the mag is removed - definitely NOT magnetized.



UD


No direct contact of particles with magnet surface in that situation.

Maybe that makes a difference relative to a magnetic drain plug?


Thats one thought , that and the particles don't travel across the face of the poles unidirectionally enough times to actually retain any real magnetism, or what they may pick up leaves nearly instantly with the heat.

UD

 

[UncleDave]

Originally Posted By: Ohle_Manezzini
Originally Posted By: UncleDave


http://www.fz09.org/forum/6-fz-09-general-discussion/1437-cut-open-filter-my-first-oil-change.html

Heres an article and pict - notice the trail of previously held particles sliding down the can when the mag is removed - definitely NOT magnetized.



UD


This is because Carbon particles are diamagnetic, it only act as magnetized inside a magnetic field. Appart from the magnetic field they are not magnetized anymore. Now you see it wasn't ferrous materia, just carbon that slid down the can.


Ive only heard of "ferromagnetic carbon" in a few tech pieces under very limited conditions.

Do you have any new material to study on this?

Thanks

UD