Seeking advice/opinions on bypass filter

[linksep]

RE: My previous post - I had a huge post about cost-benefit analysis and a bunch of other topics but then I re-read your original post... For the miles you're racking up just do it. It will pay for itself in under a year.

Second: You're currently wasting a ton of money with 5K oil changes. BP filter or not you should be running 10K or longer oil change intervals - that is what Toyota calls for in "normal" driving conditions. Your driving conditions are far from "normal", they're basically "ideal". I believe you said mostly highway... that's top-gear so the fewest possible engine revolutions and combustion events per mile, meaning the fewest possible contaminants in your oil per mile traveled.

Third: Don't rely on magic sludge cleaning additives. You have already indicated that your engine is most likely not a sludger and oil manufacturers are constantly battling to one-up each other in various areas of oil performance, one of those areas is sludge prevention and/or cleaning. It's unscientific and anecdotal but my engine got fed tens of thousands of miles worth of 5K oil changes using VSP 5w30 and M1 AFE 0w30. Under the oil cap looked pretty good but there were a few small areas of carbon goo visible (presumably from vapor, I'm sure those areas aren't bathed in flowing/splashing liquid oil). Now there's not a ton of love on BITOG over VSP, but I don't think anyone would argue that it is a BAD oil. After my first 8K OCI with PP (I was going to 10K but chickened out), I noticed some of the black carbon goo was removed. Maybe PP really is good at cleaning dirty engines and keeping clean engines clean? (Though I doubt my engine is anything resembling dirty.) I took pictures as I was doing my first PP oil change, and as I was doing my second PP oil change, I plan to take pics again during 3rd PP installation to see what 16K mikes with PP will do to an already pretty darn clean engine.

Fourth: Dexos is primarily a pseudo-extortion gimmick by GM. Yes Dexos is a standards based certification, and any oil that is Dexos certified is going to be good enough for 99.9999% of engines and situations. But there are other oils out there that meet or surpass Dexos standards without paying GM $0.09 per quart manufactured. Most owners don't have the attention span to read up and find out that any oil "meeting" Dexos specifications is more than good enough, they think if it doesn't have the official Dexos logo on it then they're going to void their warranty. Is any Dexos certified oil more than good enough to run 10K OCI in your car with your driving pattern? Absolutely. Is some officially licensed Dexos oil THE BEST oil for you to run 30-50K OCI with bypass filtration? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[CT8]

7,000 miles a month would make the money spent on an Amsoil bypass system worth it to see 6 month + oil changes . You now should be able to do 25.000 mile changes with the vehicle and Amsoil or M!1 with the Amsoil filter or the Fram Ultra filter and a high quality air filter.

 

[ron17571]

You will find that almost everyone here hates bypass filters and feel they are a waste of time except on diesel engines.
My advice is to run Mobil one synthetic with a decent,normal filter(maybe M1 FILTER).My dad did this with his Prius and had no problems ever with his.

 

[zpinch]

Ron, you obviously know very little about bypass filters. He has the perfect candidate application for a bypass setup.

 

[Raidin]

Hey guys, I've been quite busy lately, but here's a quick update.

I got an oil analysis kit from Blackstone Labs, and will check out my oil after 10k miles (my OEM recommended OCI), and try 15k miles without any bypass filtration, just to see what the oil looks like. I'll either go with Mobile 1 EP oil and filter (the filter is rated for 15k miles), or Amsoil SS + a 15k filter, if I can find a local Amsoil dealer.

Note: I looked up Amsoil's SS synthetic oil data sheet, and it does show that it meets all current standards, along with Dexos 1. It just isn't licensed by GM.

I did some math based on my annual mileage of 93k, at the cost of $70 oil changes and $90 for bypass filter oil changes ($40 BP filter every other oil change means $20 added to each oil change, hence $90 instead of $70). I thought I'd share that with you guys, here's what I am seeing:

5k OCI = $1,302 a year
10k OCI = $651 (saving $651 from 5k point, difference of $651 from previous OCI)
15k OCI = $434 ($868, $217)

- Beyond 15k I switch from $70 oil changes to $90 BP ones -

20k OCI = $418.50 ($883.50, $15.50)
25k OCI = $334.80 ($967.20, $83.70)
30k OCI = $279 ($1,023, $55.8)
35k OCI = $239.14 ($1,062.86, $39.86)
40k OCI = $209.25 ($1,092.75, $29.89)

Once I go past 25k OCIs, the gains are not significant. Going from 25k to 40k OCI saves me about $125 a year, or $12 a month. Going from 15k OCIs to 25k with BP saves me around $100 a year. To make BP filtration really worthwhile, it would have to allow me to go reach 30k or more.

One another note, I took some pictures of my engine bay. As you can see, while it is cramped, there's a lot of room behind the engine. From below, I can't tell thanks to the large plastic cover which would take something like 20 to 30 minutes to remove due to the fasteners and bolts. Toyota/Lexus just gives you a small door to reach the oil and oil filter.

 

[Raidin]

Originally Posted By: Raidin

5k OCI = $1,302 a year
10k OCI = $651 (saving $651 from 5k point, difference of $651 from previous OCI)
15k OCI = $434 ($868, $217)

- Beyond 15k I switch from $70 oil changes to $90 BP ones -

20k OCI = $418.50 ($883.50, $15.50)
25k OCI = $334.80 ($967.20, $83.70)
30k OCI = $279 ($1,023, $55.8)
35k OCI = $239.14 ($1,062.86, $39.86)
40k OCI = $209.25 ($1,092.75, $29.89)


I forgot to take into account that the FF oil filter still needs to be changed at its own interval (such as 15k). I will do the math over again to include this and redo my calculation list when I have the time.

 

[Greasymechtech]

A good bypass filter should let you go indefinitely with the oil. Just change the full flow filter as required, top of oil as required, and replace bypass when it stops filtering.

Your driving style seems tolerable of a 15k-20k OCI with nothing but quality full synthetic, and long life full flow filter(RoyalPurple, Wix/Napa, Purolater, Fram, Bosch, Amsoil ...).

Amsoil, Redline, RoyalPurple, MPT, Mobil1, Castrol, OilExtreme,...are several in the unlimited supply of long lasting synthetics.

Plenty of room for a TP sized filter. But, might have to run slightly longer oil lines, which is no big deal for a good mech.

 

[Raidin]

Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
A good bypass filter should let you go indefinitely with the oil. Just change the full flow filter as required, top of oil as required, and replace bypass when it stops filtering.


While I am not opposed to doing this, I can't help but wonder about the risk of oxidation and sludge build up on the same oil. My primary goal is cost reduction, but I do have a secondary goal of engine life, as I don't plan to replace this car. I just don't see how I can keep running on the same oil for really long OCIs like 60k, 90k, or indefinitely without possible harm. How about the loss of additives? Would the top-off oil be enough?

Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Your driving style seems tolerable of a 15k-20k OCI with nothing but quality full synthetic, and long life full flow filter(RoyalPurple, Wix/Napa, Purolater, Fram, Bosch, Amsoil ...).

Amsoil, Redline, RoyalPurple, MPT, Mobil1, Castrol, OilExtreme,...are several in the unlimited supply of long lasting synthetics.


I plan to start using Mobil 1 Extended Performance synthetic oil and filter to reach 15k OCIs without a BPF (Bypass filter), so I should be good to go there.

Originally Posted By: Greasymechtech
Plenty of room for a TP sized filter. But, might have to run slightly longer oil lines, which is no big deal for a good mech.


What is the advantage?

---

I finally did my math over again, and this is what I found:

OCI--------Saved per year from 5k OCIs-----------------Saved from previous OCI
5000-----$1,153.20-- $000.00 ($00.00 monthly)---$0.00-------($00.00 monthly)
10000---$576.60------$576.60 ($48.05 monthly)---$576.60-- ($48.05 monthly)
15000---$384.40------$768.80 ($64.06 monthly)---$192.20-- ($10.02 monthly)
20000---$399.71------$753.49 ($62.79 monthly) +$015.31 (+$01.28 monthly)
25000---$334.50------$818.70 ($68.23 monthly)---$065.21-- ($05.43 monthly)
30000---$291.40------$861.80 ($71.82 monthly)---$043.10-- ($03.59 monthly)
35000---$260.29------$892.91 ($74.41 monthly)---$023.33-- ($01.94 monthly)
40000---$236.96------$916.24 ($76.35 monthly)---$023.33-- ($01.94 monthly)

(Sorry for the [censored]-looking table, did it on my phone.)

This is based on $50 oil + labor, $12 filter, and $20 BP filter, taking into account changing the FF filter every 15k regardless of OCI, and changing the BP filter once every other OCI.

As both dnewton3 and WobblyElvis were cautioning, a cost analysis was indeed critical. Based on my math (please correct me if I am wrong, and feel free to request the formulas), after 15k, the benefit of the BPF is significantly reduced. It would be worthwhile if I couldn't do 10k or 15k OCI, but as long as that's possible without the BPF, I'd save only about $100 a year if I went as far as 40K, with a small bonus if I went further.

I'd have to do what Greasymechtech was saying and keep the oil with only topping off and filter changing to maximize the benefits of the BPF.

 

[Doug Hillary]

Hi,
Raidin - The economics of using a BP filter depends on the application. For most persons frequenting BITOG the economics will simply not stack up!!!

With my OTR vehicles the "break-even" point arrived at an OCI of around 65kkms. The progression to this point involved testing 15W-40 Mineral, 15W-40 Semi-Synthetic and finally 5W-40 Synthetic lubricants. Of course a fully fledged UOA programme was used

The OCI was averaged at 90kkms with Fe, Soot and TAN/TBN used as condemnation points. Viscosity was always within parameters and at OC varied little from new

In the end I used SS-FF filter inserts that only required cleaning. The Centrifuge insert collected contaminants at an average of 0.0029gm/km

Typical Fleet use was around 500kkms per annum per vehicle and oil consumption averaged 6kkms per litre

From the original OCI of around 15kkms, two FF filters and 40litres of lubricant and a half day in a workshop, to what was finally my "standard" of 90kkms OCIs with no replacement filters cost and around two hours lost productivity there was a real economic benefit! The Centrifuge' paper insert was changed (around $2) and the FF filters were cleaned annually - an hours job!

Due to the increase in viscosity the Mineral lubricant could not go beyond 20kkms and the Semi-Synthetic not beyond 40kkms. These were high quality OEM Approved lubricants

So I strongly advise anybody tempted to install a BP system to review the economics as you have done

 

[NYSteve]

Originally Posted By: Raidin

One another note, I took some pictures of my engine bay. As you can see, while it is cramped, there's a lot of room behind the engine. From below, I can't tell thanks to the large plastic cover which would take something like 20 to 30 minutes to remove due to the fasteners and bolts. Toyota/Lexus just gives you a small door to reach the oil and oil filter.


Try taking off the cover at the front of the engine that covers the radiator. I have a much bigger Lexus (GX), but there is a huge open behind my passenger side headlight that you cannot see with the cover on.

 

[zpinch]

Yes, take off the plastic valve cover 'cover', and the radiator cover and take some more photos.

 

[Raidin]

Hi everyone, it has been nearly one and a half years since the last time we spoke. I was waiting on another report from Blackstone before returning with an update, but decided it would be redundant or irrelevant at this point (I'm simply switching oil brands, and no longer extending OCIs).

To refresh everyone's memory, I was asking about installing a bypass oil filtration system as recommended by my mechanic. A few of you chimed in that I should, because of the nature of my needs and situation, look at a cost-benefit analysis and see if I really even need such a filter system. Based on that, it seemed like it would not be worthwhile to jump into one right away, but instead look at extending my OCI to gain most of the cost benefits without modifying or installing anything on my car. That is what I ended up doing.

Since we last spoke, I mentioned that I was going to start my testing using Mobil 1's Extended Performance full synthetic at 15k mile OCIs. I used the oil filter Mobil 1 sells using the same brand (Extended Performance), also designed for 15k OCIs. I have to tell you, it worked out great. As some of you suspected, my driving style does indeed lend to a good setup for long OCIs.

I have since sent in 5 reports, each time extending my OCI. I have discovered that, according to Blackstone, I can actually run my oil nearly at 30k OCIs, if not more, but at 25k miles, the filter seems to start breaking down. I don't want to risk the material breaking off and clogging something up, so I have now switched to a 20k OCI to give myself a buffer in case I have to go over 20k between oil changes. Also, going past 20k per OCI is negligible as far as cost benefit.

Without further ado, here are my 5 reports for your review:

 

[A310]

Very nice reports

 

[Ihatetochangeoil]

Very nice reports indeed! Thanks for posting this info! I see no point in adding bypass filtration; and that is coming from a bypass Nazi. (Me).

Not trying to insult your intelligence...I don't know how common the knowledge is...But you can take your Iron (Fe) in ppm and divide it by the mileage in thousands, and the result is accepted as a "wear rate" for the engine.

For example, your first report shows 6 ppm Iron and 15,768 miles; so 6/15.7=0.382. Go look anywhere on this site and see how this stacks up.

107,642 miles worth of UOA, your trends are worth bragging about.

I have a couple questions for you if you don't mind...Do you drive 100% on paved roads, and if so, how often do/have you changed your air filter? Asking because I see pure consistency in your Silicon counts.

How long do you think is a reasonable time period for this vehicle to last?

BTW, I am employed at a testing laboratory (We DON'T test oil), but we have a huge tensile hydraulic machine with about a 3' diameter cylinder, it will pull tensile tests in the hundreds of thousands of pounds...Anyway, it has a bronze plaque on it that may be 50 years old...The plaque says "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

Your oil tests speak for themselves.

 

[Raidin]

Originally Posted By: Ihatetochangeoil
Very nice reports indeed! Thanks for posting this info! I see no point in adding bypass filtration; and that is coming from a bypass Nazi. (Me).

Not trying to insult your intelligence...I don't know how common the knowledge is...But you can take your Iron (Fe) in ppm and divide it by the mileage in thousands, and the result is accepted as a "wear rate" for the engine.

For example, your first report shows 6 ppm Iron and 15,768 miles; so 6/15.7=0.382. Go look anywhere on this site and see how this stacks up.

107,642 miles worth of UOA, your trends are worth bragging about.

I have a couple questions for you if you don't mind...Do you drive 100% on paved roads, and if so, how often do/have you changed your air filter? Asking because I see pure consistency in your Silicon counts.

How long do you think is a reasonable time period for this vehicle to last?

BTW, I am employed at a testing laboratory (We DON'T test oil), but we have a huge tensile hydraulic machine with about a 3' diameter cylinder, it will pull tensile tests in the hundreds of thousands of pounds...Anyway, it has a bronze plaque on it that may be 50 years old...The plaque says "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

Your oil tests speak for themselves.


Hey, thank you very much! (You too, A310!) I had a feeling some of you might like to see these, and see what Blackstone wrote on each.

No insults perceived! I actually am a complete amatuer to this stuff so no, I have never heard about using the Iron count to measure wear. I'll look that up! Thanks!

As to my driving style. I drive in Houston, TX, 75% highway, all paved roads, with the occasional dust cloud from construction sites or trucks that just came from one. I set my cruise to 60 MPH most of the time, and 65 or 70 a few times depending on the situation. I tend to keep city driving to casual, but sometimes I will drive enthusiastically. Keep in mind that since Toyota uses an eCVT, my engine RPM is also steady most of the time, which I'm sure helps a lot.

I used to change my air filter every 2 oil changes, but now I do it whenever I or my mechanic feel it needs changing. For some reason, it rarely needs changing, so we adopted this method for cost and convenience.

I bought this car because I don't plan on changing it unless forced to. I am hoping to not see any issues until 300k-400k, but I plan to repair and maintain it as long as it will last, and hope to see one million miles one day, if my job keeps me going that long (I do about 100k miles a year now, used to be 130k a year).

So far, I have had 0 issues as far as power and drive trains are involved, and the car still drives like new. Current mileage is 248k.

 

[Crusher]

Raidin
That's a great report!
You've got a great engine to go with the M1-EP. I agree with Ihatetochangeoil, no need for a bypass set up. Keep doing what your doing. The UOA tells you the truth!

 

[Raidin]

Originally Posted By: Crusher
Raidin
That's a great report!
You've got a great engine to go with the M1-EP. I agree with Ihatetochangeoil, no need for a bypass set up. Keep doing what your doing. The UOA tells you the truth!


Thanks Crusher! Any time I make any change to my routine or OCI, I try to get a sample sent in. I'll definitely keep you guys posted with those.

I appreciate all the feedback! You guys know a lot more about this subject than I do.

 

[rrounds]

Nice reports. And at a little over 13000 miles a month I would say you do run some easy miles.

ROD

 

[Shata]

Wow that's impressive with no bypass setup. Although inline engines are always very efficient and low wear engines.

Is that no make up oil/top offs accurate? No qts added in 25k+ miles?

 

[UncleDave]

With such a robust low cost OCI program, you can now focus on the other things that are likely to affect your longevity like the CVT fluid, and inverter cooler etc.

Thanks for the info - been a great read.

UD