Alternatives to Standard Car Battery

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Messages
6,145
Location
DFW
I saw a Scotty Kilmer video in which he talked about a Lithium Iron Phosphate motorcycle battery. He mentioned that they weren't available for cars yet due to the high prices. I did a fair bit of research online and saw that some of the ATV/Powersports LiFePO4 batteries appeared to have enough power and capacity for a car like mine (4 cylinder) and come in a very small package. I could not find any references to anyone trying that for an extended period.

I also noticed that there are a number of very high capacity AGM batteries sold as auxiliary batteries for cars with a lot of electronics (sound systems), but their capacities and reserve power make them look like very viable alternatives to regular car batteries. Plus, the manufacturers even state that they can be used in place of the standard battery. The big plus is that they cost $50-100 less than AGM car batteries. The ones I am thinking about are pretty close to the same size and weight of a conventional battery.

So, I'm asking if anyone out there has tried ANY alternative to a standard car battery for any length of time. The OEM battery in my 2012 Mazda3 is still starting the car just fine, but it reads 12.7 volts after a highway run. I can attach my float charger and it will read about 13.5 the next morning, but goes back to reading about 12.7 24 hours later. Four and a half years is actually not bad for a flooded cell battery in Texas so I'm not complaining. I'm just thinking about getting creative with my next battery.
 
Some people use a big electrolytic capacitor on a motorcycle. You can kick-start a proper motorcycle which is how you get away with it. It'd have to be really huge on a car.

If I find a source of big electrolytic capacitors I'll try that on my 2-stroke, which doesn't have a starter motor anyway.
 
Originally Posted By: madRiver
What problem we trying to solve?


Not really trying to solve a problem.

My experience with AGM was definitely positive as I got twice the life and a lot longer period of failure which allowed me to replace the battery before ever needing to jump start the car. I guess another way to state that is that the voltage drop curve was a lot flatter with the AGM battery than with any of the multiple conventional batteries I had in my last car during the 23 years I owned it.

The LiFePO4 battery apparently has at least four times, or more, the number of cycles in it compared to a lead-acid battery. So, the other thing I was looking to do is reduce the solid waste stream.

I'm considering this one, btw.

AGM Battery
 
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Some people use a big electrolytic capacitor on a motorcycle. You can kick-start a proper motorcycle which is how you get away with it. It'd have to be really huge on a car.

If I find a source of big electrolytic capacitors I'll try that on my 2-stroke, which doesn't have a starter motor anyway.


I've seen several YouTube videos in which people have made their own capacitor packs with a small lithium ion battery on board for initial charge of the capacitors. I guess the drawback might be that super capacitors are pretty pricey.
 
Another issue would be charging the battery. Is there a published charging curve, and if so, can your alternator (or the ECM which controls it) be set up to charge it properly? I commend you for thinking long-term about the waste stream; but be aware that according to East Penn Mfg., up to 98% of a lead-acid battery is recyclable PROVIDED the battery makes it to the system.
 
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
Originally Posted By: Ducked
Some people use a big electrolytic capacitor on a motorcycle. You can kick-start a proper motorcycle which is how you get away with it. It'd have to be really huge on a car.

If I find a source of big electrolytic capacitors I'll try that on my 2-stroke, which doesn't have a starter motor anyway.


I've seen several YouTube videos in which people have made their own capacitor packs with a small lithium ion battery on board for initial charge of the capacitors. I guess the drawback might be that super capacitors are pretty pricey.


Advantage for a little-used vehicle is that capacitors don't die if left discharged, unlike lead-acid batteries.

Photovoltaic cells might be another way of addressing that problem, though I suppose you could also use them with a capacitor.
 
I will probably go with a Bosch AGM battery from Pep Boys. If purchased online and picked up in the store it's around $150. I'm not to the point of buying yet, but I figured for once in my life I wouldn't wait until I needed a jump before buying a battery. That limits the options more. That's why I like AGM better than flooded, the flatter aging curve.

But, I'll still keep my eyes out for the emerging technologies to become more affordable. I'll bet TWO of the LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries, wired in parallel would work in a car, but then you're looking at $400+ at the low end.

The goal of my OP was to find out if anyone here is a mad scientist and had tried out any of the alternatives.
 
I would argue that discharge 'cycles' are irrelevant for the lithium iron phosphate batteries vice the AGM lead acid batteries.
What's a cycle and why does it matter because most of the time you're not discharging the battery except to start the engine; the alternator then supplies the current in parallel to the battery. I've had batteries last for 5-10 years; only reason to replace them is when they fail a load test.

And don't forget to add distilled water to lead acid batteries! It's not as easy to do nowadays as years ago, but it makes big difference if you make the effort to access the cells.
 
I think 12.7 is like a 100 percent charge on a battery. I think the 13.xxx volts is a surface charge. A load test is the best way to check true battery condition.. Good to be proactive so you are not left stranded with a bad battery. Is this battery located underhood? I thought they were a somewhat sensitive to heat as far as AGM batteries go.
 
I don't think you've hit upon the real reason for these alternative batteries which is weight savings, not the issues with cycling.

On a motorcycle or atv or racecar weight of a battery makes a difference. IF you've seen racecars they have a teeny little battery strapped down to where the battery usually goes.

If weight savings isn't your goal, I think for longevity and then you stick with the standard batteries rather than going off on your own.
 
12.7 is basically fully charged.. well as fully charged as a car alternator will do.
 
Went over to the fall festival, and talked to one of the fire dept guys for a bit. He was going to park the truck so that they could just roll it down the hill and pop start it -- they had forgotten to bring a 6V charger. 1937 Ford with V8 flathead.

So that's an option too. Just get something that doesn't really need a battery, and park strategically.
 
To address the comments so far, cycles is really supposed to relate to the number of times the battery can go from full charge to no charge. Obviously, most car batteries will never experience that. If it does happen on flooded batteries the sulfation created is usually irreversible. AGM batteries are able to operate more like deep cycle batteries and do not sulfate. The number of partial cycles, though, does eventually add up to a number of equivalent full cycles and the battery wears out. AGM and Lithium batteries are capable of more cycles so they TEND to last longer. AGM is supposed to be superior as far as heat tolerance goes. Under the hood of my old Honda the battery was mounted very close to the exhaust manifold and had no insulation or battery box. It got very hot under that hood, which is why the conventional batteries had a three year maximum lifespan. The first Optima red top I installed in 2002 lasted six year. The battery on my Mazda is in a box located against the firewall, plus it gets nowhere near as hot under the hood. I have, once or twice, topped up the liquid level with purified water, being careful not to go past the "max" line on the side of the battery case. I know it may no longer be the case, but I recall that the OEM Japanese batteries in cars built in Japan seemed to last a very long time.

I think, though, you guys have made some good, logical statements that indicate I should just stick with a good standard battery or go AGM for the extended life.
 
Originally Posted By: DBMaster
... I recall that the OEM Japanese batteries in cars built in Japan seemed to last a very long time. ...
The original battery of my Mazda was apparently still OK when I replaced it at 8 years. Unlike most of the subsequent US-made ones in that car, it didn't make a mess around the terminals, clamp, etc.

The original 12-volt batteries in some cars, including Prii, are AGM.
 
Originally Posted By: supton
Went over to the fall festival, and talked to one of the fire dept guys for a bit. He was going to park the truck so that they could just roll it down the hill and pop start it -- they had forgotten to bring a 6V charger. 1937 Ford with V8 flathead.

So that's an option too. Just get something that doesn't really need a battery, and park strategically.


If you're ever in a pinch you can put a bulk charge on a 6V car battery with one of those buzz-box 12 volt chargers. Just put it on a low
Cut it off when the battery has enough juice to start, which would be an hour or two.

DON'T jump start from a 12 volt battery... that has virtually unlimited amperage and will cook the 6 volt battery or the rest of that sophisticated 1937 electrical system.
wink.gif
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top