Smyrna, TN. Blue Angel Crash Report Released

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: grampi


It's all just blather until you prove it...


Yes.

However, your opinion is equally blather.

The T-birds put on a great show, I've seen them several times, but they simply don't fly as close as the Blue Angels. They never have. Close formation has been a hallmark of the Blues since day one.

No matter how many times you hijack aviation threads to claim the contrary.

I respect your time in the USAF. My kid brother was USAF. I served as the EA to a USAF LGEN (3-star). I love the USAF.

But you've got to stop this blind "USAF is better" hogwash because it's clear that you've never seen the Blue Angels. The Blue Angels, the US Navy Flight Demonstration Team, was founded in 1946.

The USAF was founded in 1947 and the Thunderbirds in 1953.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: TheLoneRanger
I read in a newspaper report that "...fatigue may have been a contributing factor..." in this
crash. I have a feeling that's what started the chain of events that led to the tragedy.



A Specious claim. Easy to speculate, before any facts are available, and difficult to prove otherwise, once postulated.

The mishap report doesn't conclude anything of the sort. The Blues have an incredibly demanding schedule, but they are very careful about getting enough rest. You simply can't fall behind during show season, because you can't catch up.

I wouldn't give any credibility to a newspaper report. I've seen some incredibly ignorant reporting on military matters in the paper here in Virginia Beach. In one of the largest military areas in the world, reporters can't get service, rank, aircraft type and other simple basics correct...so I wouldn't consider any of their speculation to be even remotely credible...

 

[Win]

I thought it was interesting that the investigator expressed the opinion (#2) that weather was a "factor", but the person to whom the report was made overruled that, changing #2 to not a "causal factor". It seemed arbitrary, since the investigator gave some plausible evidence for his opinion, and the superior gave none, and then added the confusing "causal".

Very sad. Aviation mistakes happen so fast and are so unforgiving.

 

[Astro14]

There was a scattered layer of clouds, but I agree with the Admiral (Dell Bull) who endorsed it, since the airplane didn't go though the clouds, they weren't causal.

If the investigating officer was making the argument that a scattered layer distorted depth perception, or caused distraction, well...that's tough to demonstrate conclusively.

Fundamentally, there was a window in space that he was supposed to hit in order to initiate the split S. 3,500 AGL and 135 KIAS. His relationship to that window was all on his HUD, it wasn't a purely visual maneuver.

Interestingly, 135 KIAS is really, really slow for a fighter airplane. It's the unique high alpha capabilities of the Hornet that even make this maneuver possible. While Grampi will no doubt weigh in on this comment, it's not a USAF vs. USN thing: ONLY the Hornet could do a split S from that entry position. The F-16, for example, could not. I've flown both the F/A-18 and the F-16 and you'll have to believe me on this point.

Now, the F-22 puts on an eye-watering display, with unbelievable power and maneuverability. Perhaps the Raptor could pull off that split S. But ACC is very careful with how close their $250 million fighter gets to the ground. At the Oceana air show this month, both the F-22 and the Blues flew great shows. It was good to see the Blues put on a tight, well flown show so soon after this tragic mishap.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: grampi


It's all just blather until you prove it...


Yes.

However, your opinion is equally blather.

The T-birds put on a great show, I've seen them several times, but they simply don't fly as close as the Blue Angels. They never have. Close formation has been a hallmark of the Blues since day one.

No matter how many times you hijack aviation threads to claim the contrary.

I respect your time in the USAF. My kid brother was USAF. I served as the EA to a USAF LGEN (3-star). I love the USAF.

But you've got to stop this blind "USAF is better" hogwash because it's clear that you've never seen the Blue Angels. The Blue Angels, the US Navy Flight Demonstration Team, was founded in 1946.

The USAF was founded in 1947 and the Thunderbirds in 1953.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels


I've seen both teams fly many times...IMO, the Thunderbirds are better...when the teams were founded has nothing to do with how good they are...

 

[Kuato]

.

 

[Malo83]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: grampi


It's all just blather until you prove it...


Yes.

However, your opinion is equally blather.

The T-birds put on a great show, I've seen them several times, but they simply don't fly as close as the Blue Angels. They never have. Close formation has been a hallmark of the Blues since day one.

No matter how many times you hijack aviation threads to claim the contrary.

I respect your time in the USAF. My kid brother was USAF. I served as the EA to a USAF LGEN (3-star). I love the USAF.

But you've got to stop this blind "USAF is better" hogwash because it's clear that you've never seen the Blue Angels. The Blue Angels, the US Navy Flight Demonstration Team, was founded in 1946.

The USAF was founded in 1947 and the Thunderbirds in 1953.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels


I've seen both teams fly many times...IMO, the Thunderbirds are better...when the teams were founded has nothing to do with how good they are...


In your opinion...

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Malo83
Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Astro14
Originally Posted By: grampi


It's all just blather until you prove it...


Yes.

However, your opinion is equally blather.

The T-birds put on a great show, I've seen them several times, but they simply don't fly as close as the Blue Angels. They never have. Close formation has been a hallmark of the Blues since day one.

No matter how many times you hijack aviation threads to claim the contrary.

I respect your time in the USAF. My kid brother was USAF. I served as the EA to a USAF LGEN (3-star). I love the USAF.

But you've got to stop this blind "USAF is better" hogwash because it's clear that you've never seen the Blue Angels. The Blue Angels, the US Navy Flight Demonstration Team, was founded in 1946.

The USAF was founded in 1947 and the Thunderbirds in 1953.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Angels


I've seen both teams fly many times...IMO, the Thunderbirds are better...when the teams were founded has nothing to do with how good they are...


In your opinion...


I said IMO...CT8 is the one who is claiming something subjective as fact...

 

[CT8]

Originally Posted By: gramp

I've seen both teams fly many times...IMO, the Thunderbirds are better...when the teams were founded has nothing to do with how good they are... [/quote


In your opinion...


I said IMO...CT8 is the one who is claiming something subjective as fact... [/quote]No it is fact. Another fact, I don't do planes unless there is a bathroom .

 

[Mr Nice]

I'm ANG (AF) and the Thunderbirds are kind of boring. Navy puts on an amazing show.

 

[Astro14]

Grampi - please go start your own thread about how the Thunderbirds are the best ever. You keep hijacking aviation threads with your off topic, monotone blather about the Air Force.

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
I'm ANG (AF) and the Thunderbirds are kind of boring. Navy puts on an amazing show.


I don't know what shows you're watching, but the F18s are boring compared to the much better performing F16s..

 

[grampi]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
Grampi - please go start your own thread about how the Thunderbirds are the best ever. You keep hijacking aviation threads with your off topic, monotone blather about the Air Force.


I wasn't the one who brought up the Thunderbirds...CT8 did...

 

[Mr Nice]

When will both teams transition into the F-35 ?

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: grampi
Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
I'm ANG (AF) and the Thunderbirds are kind of boring. Navy puts on an amazing show.


I don't know what shows you're watching, but the F18s are boring compared to the much better performing F16s..


Start your own thread, please!

 

[CT8]

The F16s are really cool looking planes [For planes with out bathrooms and break facilities FYI]

 

[ebr1190rx]

Say there Astro: could the turkey pull out of that split s?

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: ebr1190rx
Say there Astro: could the turkey pull out of that split s?


Alpha ability of the airplane is the key to being successful in this low altitude split S.

The F-14 might have been able to, in the hands of a master. That airplane was capable of tremendous AOA, but it took real finesse to control it at low speed and high AOA. I've seen the F-14 do some phenomenal things at air shows, when flown by a real master, like Dale Snodgrass...

But, as a practical matter? No.

That's the beauty of the F/A-18 - incredible AOA capability, enabled by the fly by wire, and it easy and stable when flown like that.

The F-16 guys used to marvel at the Hornet's AOA ability. "Never get slow with a Hornet" was a common phrase. To be blunt (and before Grampi claims that the Thunderbirds and the F-16 can, while simultaneously solving world hunger) the F-16 simply can't do that maneuver. Its AOA is limited by the fly by wire for stability reasons. That's why you'll never see the Thunderbirds do a low altitude split S like that.

It's a maneuver made possible solely by the Hornet's capabilities.

 

[Astro14]

Originally Posted By: Mr Nice
When will both teams transition into the F-35 ?


I doubt that will happen in the next decade or two.

The F-35 is very, very expensive. Fatigue from the flight demonstration would be very costly in terms of service life.

The Blues are planning to transition to the F/A-18E model next year, as the older Hornets are wearing out. Production of the older Hornet began in 1980 and ended 16 years ago when the new E/F model of the F/A-18 hit high production rates. The Blues have been flying the older model since 1986.

The F-16 is still in production, and there are lots of new ones in the USAF inventory, so there are plenty of airframes available for the team.

I wouldn't expect to see a team fly the F-35 for a long time, though you will soon see it do single ship "tactical demonstrations" like the F/A-18E, F-15 and F-22 do now.

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: Astro14
I've seen the F-14 do some phenomenal things at air shows, when flown by a real master, like Dale Snodgrass...



How did Dale Snodgrass get such skill and reputation? Was it that many hours?