Tesla Lawsuit in Norway -- Sluggish Cars
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I love Tesla's response that some mags tested some other cars, and therefore there's no problem.
I'm going to guess Tesla is involved in VW-style cheating, to where they are preventing the cars from achieving full performance to keep the range up.
I'm going to guess Tesla is involved in VW-style cheating, to where they are preventing the cars from achieving full performance to keep the range up.
Is the complaint from the plaintiffs another version of "I'm stupid" but only for official purposes? The only thing the court must do is determine how much as long as it does not interfere with the 9AM to 2PM lunch break.
The Tesla is a one-trick pony. Its big trick is doing one max effort acceleration for a 1/4-mile, then taking a couple of hours to cool down and recharge. Car & Driver just published results of their annual Lightning Lap test, and they tested a Tesla P85. It ran at a pretty respectable rate for the first 40 seconds, then power limiting set in and slowed the car for the rest of the 197 second lap. They even tried to help it perform by not doing a fast warmup lap, only getting on it in the last turn prior to the hot lap.
^^^Yep, they are really fun light to light. Remind me of my old cars, went like crazy but couldn't turn to save your life!
In ordinary driving the Tesla seems superb to me, quiet, quick, smooth. Just heavy as all get out.
It'll be a while before Musk develops supercooled components that can stand the immense current requirements...
In ordinary driving the Tesla seems superb to me, quiet, quick, smooth. Just heavy as all get out.
It'll be a while before Musk develops supercooled components that can stand the immense current requirements...
Tesla is only going to dump when the charitable donati.....I mean, investments and welfare payments into "The Dream" cease.
There are quite a few shoes that still have to drop before Tesla falls down.
There are quite a few shoes that still have to drop before Tesla falls down.
As for 1/4 mile runs, the Model S can do plenty of them at the local strip. It's track days that cause the higher temperatures which result in current limiting. And, it's absolutely not a track-day car. It's a hard-accelerating, electric, heavy, family car.
Again, it's not designed or engineered for track days. The temptation is to compare the Tesla to some of the worlds best sports cars, because of it's acceleration. That's a foolish comparison. You would not take a Chevy Impala on the track and then complain about it's lack of prowess. Yet, it's in the same category of family car, price notwithstanding.
When Tesla comes out with a "Track-Pack" version, then the comparison is valid.
Again, it's not designed or engineered for track days. The temptation is to compare the Tesla to some of the worlds best sports cars, because of it's acceleration. That's a foolish comparison. You would not take a Chevy Impala on the track and then complain about it's lack of prowess. Yet, it's in the same category of family car, price notwithstanding.
When Tesla comes out with a "Track-Pack" version, then the comparison is valid.
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Originally Posted By: Cujet
As for 1/4 mile runs, the Model S can do plenty of them at the local strip. It's track days that cause the higher temperatures which result in current limiting. And, it's absolutely not a track-day car. It's a hard-accelerating, electric, heavy, family car.
Again, it's not designed or engineered for track days. The temptation is to compare the Tesla to some of the worlds best sports cars, because of it's acceleration. That's a foolish comparison. You would not take a Chevy Impala on the track and then complain about it's lack of prowess. Yet, it's in the same category of family car, price notwithstanding.
When Tesla comes out with a "Track-Pack" version, then the comparison is valid.
In defence of those making that comparison, the Tesla P90D's primary price competitors are the BMW M5, the Mercedes AMG S63/S65 and the Audi S8 and perhaps R7. All of which are very track capable. So I think the logical assumption that the Tesla should perform just as well as those cars in the same environments is an easy expectation to understand. I'm not saying it is necessarily right of course, but definitely easy to understand why those expectations exist, given the price point.
As for 1/4 mile runs, the Model S can do plenty of them at the local strip. It's track days that cause the higher temperatures which result in current limiting. And, it's absolutely not a track-day car. It's a hard-accelerating, electric, heavy, family car.
Again, it's not designed or engineered for track days. The temptation is to compare the Tesla to some of the worlds best sports cars, because of it's acceleration. That's a foolish comparison. You would not take a Chevy Impala on the track and then complain about it's lack of prowess. Yet, it's in the same category of family car, price notwithstanding.
When Tesla comes out with a "Track-Pack" version, then the comparison is valid.
In defence of those making that comparison, the Tesla P90D's primary price competitors are the BMW M5, the Mercedes AMG S63/S65 and the Audi S8 and perhaps R7. All of which are very track capable. So I think the logical assumption that the Tesla should perform just as well as those cars in the same environments is an easy expectation to understand. I'm not saying it is necessarily right of course, but definitely easy to understand why those expectations exist, given the price point.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
As for 1/4 mile runs, the Model S can do plenty of them at the local strip. It's track days that cause the higher temperatures which result in current limiting. And, it's absolutely not a track-day car. It's a hard-accelerating, electric, heavy, family car.
Again, it's not designed or engineered for track days. The temptation is to compare the Tesla to some of the worlds best sports cars, because of it's acceleration. That's a foolish comparison. You would not take a Chevy Impala on the track and then complain about it's lack of prowess. Yet, it's in the same category of family car, price notwithstanding.
When Tesla comes out with a "Track-Pack" version, then the comparison is valid.
You talk about the hypothetical "Track-Pack" Tesla as if it's just a matter of bolting on a few coolers, then it'll be good to go for 2-3 hours a day like the hydrocarbon fueled cars. It isn't that easy. The battery pack would have to be completely redesigned to effectively cool the hundreds of cells to keep them in an efficient range of operating temperature. Making more room in the battery pack for coolant passages will reduce the number of cells that can be put into the available volume. This will reduce the energy storage capacity of the battery pack, so what used to be 85 or 90 kW*hr becomes more like 55 or 60. Then it also becomes important to add water cooling to the motor core and the power control electronics, which adds more to the weight of the car. Plus the radiator must be sized very large to keep the regulated coolant temperature to about 140F, because above that, the internal resistances of all electrical components becomes so high that the powerplant efficiency drops.
As for 1/4 mile runs, the Model S can do plenty of them at the local strip. It's track days that cause the higher temperatures which result in current limiting. And, it's absolutely not a track-day car. It's a hard-accelerating, electric, heavy, family car.
Again, it's not designed or engineered for track days. The temptation is to compare the Tesla to some of the worlds best sports cars, because of it's acceleration. That's a foolish comparison. You would not take a Chevy Impala on the track and then complain about it's lack of prowess. Yet, it's in the same category of family car, price notwithstanding.
When Tesla comes out with a "Track-Pack" version, then the comparison is valid.
You talk about the hypothetical "Track-Pack" Tesla as if it's just a matter of bolting on a few coolers, then it'll be good to go for 2-3 hours a day like the hydrocarbon fueled cars. It isn't that easy. The battery pack would have to be completely redesigned to effectively cool the hundreds of cells to keep them in an efficient range of operating temperature. Making more room in the battery pack for coolant passages will reduce the number of cells that can be put into the available volume. This will reduce the energy storage capacity of the battery pack, so what used to be 85 or 90 kW*hr becomes more like 55 or 60. Then it also becomes important to add water cooling to the motor core and the power control electronics, which adds more to the weight of the car. Plus the radiator must be sized very large to keep the regulated coolant temperature to about 140F, because above that, the internal resistances of all electrical components becomes so high that the powerplant efficiency drops.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
The Tesla is a one-trick pony. Its big trick is doing one max effort acceleration for a 1/4-mile, then taking a couple of hours to cool down and recharge. Car & Driver just published results of their annual Lightning Lap test, and they tested a Tesla P85. It ran at a pretty respectable rate for the first 40 seconds, then power limiting set in and slowed the car for the rest of the 197 second lap. They even tried to help it perform by not doing a fast warmup lap, only getting on it in the last turn prior to the hot lap.
That bad, huh... I always figured the battery would be empty quickly if driven spiritedly, but didn't think there would be cooling issues. but then, the 60 kWh battery used in the Mitsubishi PHEV also has AC to cool it.
The Tesla is a one-trick pony. Its big trick is doing one max effort acceleration for a 1/4-mile, then taking a couple of hours to cool down and recharge. Car & Driver just published results of their annual Lightning Lap test, and they tested a Tesla P85. It ran at a pretty respectable rate for the first 40 seconds, then power limiting set in and slowed the car for the rest of the 197 second lap. They even tried to help it perform by not doing a fast warmup lap, only getting on it in the last turn prior to the hot lap.
That bad, huh... I always figured the battery would be empty quickly if driven spiritedly, but didn't think there would be cooling issues. but then, the 60 kWh battery used in the Mitsubishi PHEV also has AC to cool it.
I remember going up I-70 from Denver to A-Basin, and Tesla in front of me, left lane, 10mph below speed limit. I approach, he does not want to move, I flash lights, and he steps on it to prove that he can go faster. 30sec later he was in right lane driving I would say 40mph in 65mph zone.
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Cujet
As for 1/4 mile runs, the Model S can do plenty of them at the local strip. It's track days that cause the higher temperatures which result in current limiting. And, it's absolutely not a track-day car. It's a hard-accelerating, electric, heavy, family car.
Again, it's not designed or engineered for track days. The temptation is to compare the Tesla to some of the worlds best sports cars, because of it's acceleration. That's a foolish comparison. You would not take a Chevy Impala on the track and then complain about it's lack of prowess. Yet, it's in the same category of family car, price notwithstanding.
When Tesla comes out with a "Track-Pack" version, then the comparison is valid.
You talk about the hypothetical "Track-Pack" Tesla as if it's just a matter of bolting on a few coolers, then it'll be good to go for 2-3 hours a day like the hydrocarbon fueled cars. It isn't that easy. The battery pack would have to be completely redesigned to effectively cool the hundreds of cells to keep them in an efficient range of operating temperature. Making more room in the battery pack for coolant passages will reduce the number of cells that can be put into the available volume. This will reduce the energy storage capacity of the battery pack, so what used to be 85 or 90 kW*hr becomes more like 55 or 60. Then it also becomes important to add water cooling to the motor core and the power control electronics, which adds more to the weight of the car. Plus the radiator must be sized very large to keep the regulated coolant temperature to about 140F, because above that, the internal resistances of all electrical components becomes so high that the powerplant efficiency drops.
That's exactly right, the engineering involved in making electric cars track capable is daunting. The Model S is a 5-7 passenger car, not designed for track days. Expecting it to perform on the track is improper. At the moment electric propulsion is exceedingly expensive, and of limited capability.
Even so, Tesla has achieved remarkable acceleration performance from a 5000 pound family car.
Originally Posted By: Cujet
As for 1/4 mile runs, the Model S can do plenty of them at the local strip. It's track days that cause the higher temperatures which result in current limiting. And, it's absolutely not a track-day car. It's a hard-accelerating, electric, heavy, family car.
Again, it's not designed or engineered for track days. The temptation is to compare the Tesla to some of the worlds best sports cars, because of it's acceleration. That's a foolish comparison. You would not take a Chevy Impala on the track and then complain about it's lack of prowess. Yet, it's in the same category of family car, price notwithstanding.
When Tesla comes out with a "Track-Pack" version, then the comparison is valid.
You talk about the hypothetical "Track-Pack" Tesla as if it's just a matter of bolting on a few coolers, then it'll be good to go for 2-3 hours a day like the hydrocarbon fueled cars. It isn't that easy. The battery pack would have to be completely redesigned to effectively cool the hundreds of cells to keep them in an efficient range of operating temperature. Making more room in the battery pack for coolant passages will reduce the number of cells that can be put into the available volume. This will reduce the energy storage capacity of the battery pack, so what used to be 85 or 90 kW*hr becomes more like 55 or 60. Then it also becomes important to add water cooling to the motor core and the power control electronics, which adds more to the weight of the car. Plus the radiator must be sized very large to keep the regulated coolant temperature to about 140F, because above that, the internal resistances of all electrical components becomes so high that the powerplant efficiency drops.
That's exactly right, the engineering involved in making electric cars track capable is daunting. The Model S is a 5-7 passenger car, not designed for track days. Expecting it to perform on the track is improper. At the moment electric propulsion is exceedingly expensive, and of limited capability.
Even so, Tesla has achieved remarkable acceleration performance from a 5000 pound family car.
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Originally Posted By: edyvw
I remember going up I-70 from Denver to A-Basin, and Tesla in front of me, left lane, 10mph below speed limit. I approach, he does not want to move, I flash lights, and he steps on it to prove that he can go faster. 30sec later he was in right lane driving I would say 40mph in 65mph zone.
there are people like this regardless of what car they drive.
there are equally folks who will weave in and out of lanes just to get in front of you who are in tesla or non tesla alike. Especially if their fuel is "free" to them via supercharger or from a work ammenity.
I remember going up I-70 from Denver to A-Basin, and Tesla in front of me, left lane, 10mph below speed limit. I approach, he does not want to move, I flash lights, and he steps on it to prove that he can go faster. 30sec later he was in right lane driving I would say 40mph in 65mph zone.
there are people like this regardless of what car they drive.
there are equally folks who will weave in and out of lanes just to get in front of you who are in tesla or non tesla alike. Especially if their fuel is "free" to them via supercharger or from a work ammenity.
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Originally Posted By: raytseng
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I remember going up I-70 from Denver to A-Basin, and Tesla in front of me, left lane, 10mph below speed limit. I approach, he does not want to move, I flash lights, and he steps on it to prove that he can go faster. 30sec later he was in right lane driving I would say 40mph in 65mph zone.
there are people like this regardless of what car they drive.
there are equally folks who will weave in and out of lanes just to get in front of you who are in tesla or non tesla alike. Especially if their fuel is "free" to them via supercharger or from a work ammenity.
My point is he ran out of juicy after 30sec.
As for drivers, the U.S. drivers still have ways to catch up with drivers in many third word countries.
Originally Posted By: edyvw
I remember going up I-70 from Denver to A-Basin, and Tesla in front of me, left lane, 10mph below speed limit. I approach, he does not want to move, I flash lights, and he steps on it to prove that he can go faster. 30sec later he was in right lane driving I would say 40mph in 65mph zone.
there are people like this regardless of what car they drive.
there are equally folks who will weave in and out of lanes just to get in front of you who are in tesla or non tesla alike. Especially if their fuel is "free" to them via supercharger or from a work ammenity.
My point is he ran out of juicy after 30sec.
As for drivers, the U.S. drivers still have ways to catch up with drivers in many third word countries.
I've had Tesla owners make a run on me after passing them, just to have them back off quickly. I guess there must be some sort of indicator to tell them they are drying out fast.
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