Neglected car- Unknown oil '95 Caprice 5.7l LT1

Status
Not open for further replies.
Originally Posted By: bigt61
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Originally Posted By: bigt61
UOA wasn't that bad considering. That screwdriver may have already done enough damage to kill it. Once you start breaking up that carbon by hand, it usually doesn't end well unless you pull the motor apart and go all the way. In this case, not worth it. I'd just button it up and run cheap dino for 3000 mile OCIs with cheap filters. Keep it topped off and hope for the best, you may get lucky - those motors are pretty tough.


How on earth do you think a cheap dino is going to shift what is some serious sludge and varnish, some kind of miracle ??

It will take at least a day for a good car mechanic with the right tools to clean it properly top and bottom. Even if it is fully cleaned there is no guarantee that the engine has not already been damaged. The HG, VVT, turbo and timing chain are all potential weak points for an engine with poor oil flow iisues. Oddly enough when some muppet fails to change the oil the turbo will often fail well before any other parts and that does offer some degree of protection to the block.

For some odd reason some folks think that a major brand idle only use flush can damage an engine during the 10 or 15 mins it is in use, when I've never known of such an issue. If the engine is also a dripper in addition to a black death victim, I would use an engine stop leak additive or switch to a thicker HM oil, depending on how bad the leak is.


This is a 95 Caprice - a beater worth $500 to $1000 at best. Any money spent on trying to desludge it is wasted IMO. Just keep it running on cheap dino and keep it topped off if it leaks. That's it. Save your money for a nicer, newer next car.


It's not going to cost more than 100 dollars to do a few flushes and oil changes and if the engine was running OK before there is a fair chance it will be good after the clean up. It would only be a waste of money or time if you did a full manual clean up with half the top end and sump removed.
There is no need to use expensive oil or filters when cleaning up a sludge monster, although I would use an oil that cleans well after the cleaning. M1 0w40 or Penn Ultra both clean well.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
LT1 Caprice with 56k is a gem. Good luck with the flush.

Thanks! Still debating whether to do a flush or not.
 
OP - yeah, looks like a nice car - probably is worth $1500. So you have a decision to make. I'd still follow my original plan with cheap dino. If the motor fails, either rebuild it or get a low mileage junkyard replacement. I've seen SBCs running fine w 200-300k miles on them that had so much sludge build up you couldn't even see the valve springs. Maybe do one short run of 1000 miles on fresh oil and change the filter. This engine should always have a filter change w every OCI.
 
Car is worth about $4000-5000 in good running order. These have a following and a big premium is paid for LT1's. Premiums paid for low mileage as well.
 
Originally Posted By: gallydif
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
LT1 Caprice with 56k is a gem. Good luck with the flush.

Thanks! Still debating whether to do a flush or not.



I wouldn't but I would drop the oil pan.
 
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
Originally Posted By: gallydif
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
LT1 Caprice with 56k is a gem. Good luck with the flush.

Thanks! Still debating whether to do a flush or not.



I wouldn't but I would drop the oil pan.

To drop the pan, the engine needs to come out...
 
Wow that's a nice looking survivor, congrats! Sorry to hear about the general condition of the mechanical side of things; but check out that moly content(; It had a decent amount of calcium too. All I can think would be-

-Short OCIs to try and flush out some silicon & wear metals. Basic tune up after seeing the PCV (hopefully the previous silicon isn't related to your air cleaner, and is just gasket material)
-M1 EP & AFE has some of the highest magnesium contents (lower Ca though) I've seen in VOAs, which may help do some cleaning. As does the rest of the M1 line.
-Same goes for the new Valvoline Heavy Duty Diesel oil (via WalMart, cheap, but only available in 15w40 I believe)
-BG MOA is basically Calcium in a can, has something like 10k+ PPM, which would be a very helpful cleaner
-Rotella is always claimed as being a great cleaner, but so are a lot of things.
-Here's a collection of VOAs/UOAs if you're trying to find something with a high detergent package. Thanks for sharing the interesting analysis.

My personal feeling on the situation is that it's best to attack quickly and thoroughly, obviously there's not an agreement. The way I see it, 'cleaning' is not like sanding layers of paint off a wall; it's more like throwing a filthy pot in the sink/dishwasher and attempting to dissolve material. Some of it will inevitably dissolve at the base & break off, rather than from the top-down, no matter what course is taken. May as well do it quickly & thoroughly while you're paying close attention to everything. There's also a semi-relevant post about piston skirt wear from repeated induction services.

I have a Ford 4.6 that's burning ~1qt/1,000mi, but without any heavy sludge issues. I've decided to try BG EPR (109) as a cheap shot at hopefully freeing up any stuck oil rings, if they exist, and then BG MOA + Valvoline Heavy Duty Diesel or a M1 oil for the next OCI (try and get both Mg + Ca). I am considering a piston soak in the future depending on the outcome. I figure ~$25 isn't a terrible gamble for the BG products, & there's a fair amount of good word-of-mouth about them. I'll be dropping the oil pan shortly afterward to replace the gasket anyway though. I've never been able to verify the threat level of pickup screen blockage, it probably varies case by case anyway.

If you're looking for products aimed at carbon cleaning in the future, I would point to ACDelco X66 & Chrysler/Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner (which foams). And all of the various induction chamber cleaners (which the Chrysler Cleaner is also marketed as). If it were my car, I would be tempted to spray that upper valve train with the foaming MCCC, and give it a couple thorough rinses with oil before the valve covers went back on, but I'm not sure how much contamination would remain between metal-metal surfaces even after a few rinses.


I was considering the same 2 cars you have, the panther/B-body, as someone who has owned both, how would you compare the two platforms in everyday driving? I eventually chose the panther after driving both. The Caprice was a nice car, but the panther beat it as a daily driver (for me) simply due to age & overall build quality. It had many more modern amenities, and was much easier to find a nice example in a crunched time frame. I'll always have a soft spot for the Impala/Roadmaster/Wagon & might find myself revisiting them one day in the future.
 
So curiosity got the best of me, and I followed up with a quick image search for- “oil pickup blocked” and “oil pickup blocked (after) flush(ing)”

I was surprised by the results. A lot of returns for pickup tube blockages in everyday stock vehicles, easily over 5 unique manufacturers. Everything from a Toyota Hilux to Kia, lots of Saabs & VWs, BMW, GM, etc. I had no idea sludge/debris was so prevalent in lower portions of the engine; I always associated it with upper cylinder head (probably because that’s what 99% of us ever see, and it’s usually sitting in air, whereas an oil pan is always beneath oil).

I said I was planning on replacing my oil pan gasket, but now I’ll be removing my pickup tube & soaking it depending on condition. I realized that the interior (and the negative spaces in the screen) accumulate deposits as well . I assumed that anything beyond the screen would stay clean, due to the volume of hot oil flowing through it. Obviously not.

I didn’t find any clogged pickup screens resulting from flushes, but I did find this information about a Saab service shop that uses BG 120 engine purge, and pictures the amount of debris that can be dislodged by a flush, which is quite a bit. I have no idea how much an already dirty screen can be cleaned by just the solvents in a flush product. I would guess it’s effective to an extent on the thin film coating the screen (like the first picture I posted), but probably doesn’t do much for thicker chunks that physically block the screen.

I know it’s easy to spend someone else’s money, but personally I am still doing a flush + oil pan removal/pickup cleaning. After looking at 15+ clogged pickup tubes, if I had a car with contamination issues, I would play it safe and do the same. At the least, thoroughly test oil pressure (probably at every oil change), and monitor it accurately. In my mind, doing nothing is a bit like sticking ones head in the sand.


Please everyone, don't bandwagon against this opinion; I 100% agree that a heavy cleaning can lead to a clogged filter, or worsening a partially clogged filter. I'm just pointing out that a quick search returns plenty of clogged pickup screens, but none that were caused directly by flushing. I am 100% sure they exist, I am not so sure that they are as common of an issue as some people believe them to be. There's plenty of armchair theorizing about the subject, I'd love to collect more physical, pictured, evidence.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dccode

I didn’t find any clogged pickup screens resulting from flushes,


That might just be "human nature", plus practicality. If you opt for an engine flush, there's a good chance you did so at least partly because it was too much trouble (and it can be A LOT of trouble on a badly designed car) to remove the sump.

In that case you're unlikely to remove it after the flush. Optimum would be to remove and clean before the flush, then again after, but probably relatively few people are going to go to that amount of trouble.
 
Incidentally, one of your links shows an aftermarket sump made for the SAAB 9-5 turbo, with an inspection plate under the oil pickup.

IF Caprice sumps are available (say from scrapyards) cheaply, and the relevant bit of the sump base is flat, and accessible in situ, it MIGHT be possible to make such a thing.

This would be an asset in a de-sludging programme, and would substantially reduce (though not eliminate) the risk of engine flushes.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dccode
Wow that's a nice looking survivor, congrats! Sorry to hear about the general condition of the mechanical side of things; but check out that moly content(; It had a decent amount of calcium too. All I can think would be-

-Short OCIs to try and flush out some silicon & wear metals. Basic tune up after seeing the PCV (hopefully the previous silicon isn't related to your air cleaner, and is just gasket material)
-M1 EP & AFE has some of the highest magnesium contents (lower Ca though) I've seen in VOAs, which may help do some cleaning. As does the rest of the M1 line.
-Same goes for the new Valvoline Heavy Duty Diesel oil (via WalMart, cheap, but only available in 15w40 I believe)
-BG MOA is basically Calcium in a can, has something like 10k+ PPM, which would be a very helpful cleaner
-Rotella is always claimed as being a great cleaner, but so are a lot of things.
-Here's a collection of VOAs/UOAs if you're trying to find something with a high detergent package. Thanks for sharing the interesting analysis.

My personal feeling on the situation is that it's best to attack quickly and thoroughly, obviously there's not an agreement. The way I see it, 'cleaning' is not like sanding layers of paint off a wall; it's more like throwing a filthy pot in the sink/dishwasher and attempting to dissolve material. Some of it will inevitably dissolve at the base & break off, rather than from the top-down, no matter what course is taken. May as well do it quickly & thoroughly while you're paying close attention to everything. There's also a semi-relevant post about piston skirt wear from repeated induction services.

I have a Ford 4.6 that's burning ~1qt/1,000mi, but without any heavy sludge issues. I've decided to try BG EPR (109) as a cheap shot at hopefully freeing up any stuck oil rings, if they exist, and then BG MOA + Valvoline Heavy Duty Diesel or a M1 oil for the next OCI (try and get both Mg + Ca). I am considering a piston soak in the future depending on the outcome. I figure ~$25 isn't a terrible gamble for the BG products, & there's a fair amount of good word-of-mouth about them. I'll be dropping the oil pan shortly afterward to replace the gasket anyway though. I've never been able to verify the threat level of pickup screen blockage, it probably varies case by case anyway.

If you're looking for products aimed at carbon cleaning in the future, I would point to ACDelco X66 & Chrysler/Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner (which foams). And all of the various induction chamber cleaners (which the Chrysler Cleaner is also marketed as). If it were my car, I would be tempted to spray that upper valve train with the foaming MCCC, and give it a couple thorough rinses with oil before the valve covers went back on, but I'm not sure how much contamination would remain between metal-metal surfaces even after a few rinses.


I was considering the same 2 cars you have, the panther/B-body, as someone who has owned both, how would you compare the two platforms in everyday driving? I eventually chose the panther after driving both. The Caprice was a nice car, but the panther beat it as a daily driver (for me) simply due to age & overall build quality. It had many more modern amenities, and was much easier to find a nice example in a crunched time frame. I'll always have a soft spot for the Impala/Roadmaster/Wagon & might find myself revisiting them one day in the future.

First off welcome to BITOG
welcome2.gif

I see we share a common interest in full size American autos. If you have facebook, check out a group called "The Brougham Society" I believe you'd like it.
Hitting your daily question first. Man, both the panthers and bbodys are wonderful cars. Can't go wrong with either. Which panther do you have? All you said is true- the build quality is phenomenal and there's a plethora of them out there. There's just something about that 4.6. Don't know how to explain it. But every time I got in the Town Car and went to turn the engine over, I had full confidence it would each and every time. Not the fastest engine, but it's bullet proof. To me, it's the most reliable engine for cars on the road. Now the 5.7 lt1 is no slouch either. Way more powerful than the 4.6. More fun to drive. My 4.6 had 200hp. I know later on towards the end of production, the CVPI's were rated at 239hp.
Both my lt1's feel different. I put OESpectrum Monroe shocks on the Roadmaster sedan. Drives nice and soft like I'm riding on a cloud. Also note that the RMS was much better taken care of mechanically by the previous owner. It was garage kept. No sludge from what I can see. The RMS and Town Car had the same ride quality pretty much. The Caprice have shocks made for towing and it has a much firmer sporty feel to it.
The 4.6 is know to burn oil. That's common and nothing to worry about. Mine did it as well about 1qt/1k like yours. I tried everything even including the Lucas Oil Stabilizer snake oil to no avail.

It's funny you mention M1 and magnesium. Earlier today I was on the PQIA website and researching calcium, phosphorus, calcium, moly, zinc, magnesium, boron and what it all means. After comparing many dinos and synthetics, I noticed that M1 has a huge amount of magnesium. (Mobil Super is like the rest- all calcium and hardly any magnesium). It's more expensive than calcium.
I noticed that M1HM has high levels of zinc and phosphorus comparable to that of HDEO's. Know that know, I may go M1HM over HDEO now since they seem pretty comparable as far as cleaning and anti-wear agents.

What I understand is that magnesium and calcium are the detergents that will actually clean the sludge/carbon up while phosphorus and zinc are the anti-wear agents. Moly and boron are the protective coatings.
 
Originally Posted By: gallydif
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
Originally Posted By: gallydif
Originally Posted By: Gasbuggy
LT1 Caprice with 56k is a gem. Good luck with the flush.

Thanks! Still debating whether to do a flush or not.



I wouldn't but I would drop the oil pan.

To drop the pan, the engine needs to come out...



I don't know that to be true. I used to be really into Caprices (high school era). You can undo the motor mounts and lift the engine up enough take the pan off.

http://www.impalassforum.com/vBulletin/3...t-any-tips.html
 
Frequent oil changes are all I would do. You don't want that junk floating around. Complete disassembly is the only answer but not practicle.
 
Originally Posted By: bigt61


This is a 95 Caprice - a beater worth $500 to $1000 at best. Any money spent on trying to desludge it is wasted IMO. Just keep it running on cheap dino and keep it topped off if it leaks. That's it. Save your money for a nicer, newer next car.


That car, in that shape, with that mileage, will bring $5500 on the worst day in Hades.
 
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: bigt61


This is a 95 Caprice - a beater worth $500 to $1000 at best. Any money spent on trying to desludge it is wasted IMO. Just keep it running on cheap dino and keep it topped off if it leaks. That's it. Save your money for a nicer, newer next car.


That car, in that shape, with that mileage, will bring $5500 on the worst day in Hades.

Man, I wish I was selling cars in your neighborhood.
 
Originally Posted By: bigt61
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
Originally Posted By: bigt61


This is a 95 Caprice - a beater worth $500 to $1000 at best. Any money spent on trying to desludge it is wasted IMO. Just keep it running on cheap dino and keep it topped off if it leaks. That's it. Save your money for a nicer, newer next car.


That car, in that shape, with that mileage, will bring $5500 on the worst day in Hades.

Man, I wish I was selling cars in your neighborhood.


It's the going rate. Perfect example here: '96 Caprice 52k 5.7l lt1 (look at the dual exhaust) $5500

http://lakeland.craigslist.org/cto/5782024747.html
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top