Are moog suspension parts junk?

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I have no answer to the OP's question.
I am installing Moog "Problem Solver" sway bar links on my car.
SInce the old ones have 35,000 miles on 'em I won't have anything to report for a while unless it's the bushings which are rattling. Kira
 
It seems all of the Moog parts I buy for my Mazdas end up being made in japan or made in USA, depending on the part. Most of my parts that were considered problem parts come in as a revised per moog part such as sway bar end links for the protege and the Idler arm for the rx7. As for things like tie rods, they tend to come in from TRW made in japan. Some have been made in USA. To me that is definitely not a complaint as TRW is at least as good in quality as a moog part in that case. A lot of times, the TRW part and the moog part look nearly identical. The only differences I ever see are maybe the type of nut they used being in metric vs SAE.
 
Originally Posted By: KingCake
Originally Posted By: DoubleWasp
I beat up on the Moog parts in my Jeep all of the time. And I do mean BEAT. Haven't had a problem, but I keep them greased every 5000 miles with Amsoil Racing Grease.


You could use the cheapest grease imaginable and you'd never notice a difference.


The problem is moog reboxes now. So for certain applications you still get the good canada/us made stuff, as is the case for stuff like your jeep. But for many apps now you get chinese junk same as in the $9 ball joint white box.

Now and then you get a japanese made 555 part in an app for toyota or nissan.


Cases of the stuff are lying around anyway. The products I use on my heavy equipment (both worth and necessary) always trickle down to the rest of my stuff.
 
Moog Problem Solvers I will use if I need to do suspension work - and a majority of time for import applications it's a reboxed 555 Japanese part or a Lemforder.
 
Moog are very old school built parts, in this case old school doesn't equal better. Zerk fittings are long gone and rightfully so, they are not as effective at prolonging joint life as properly sealed boots and modern composite ball seats. Most Euro and Asian cars haven't used zerks in over 3 decades and many of them are still on the road with the original joints.
But that aside the problem with newer Moog joints is the boots, they tried to make a tighter boot but they are rarely properly seated and many times nicked right out of the box, they are installed and fail when greasing. If using zerks a simple push over boot is still the best.

Moog didn't use the common and proven reliable split spiral ring on the boots they decided an internal non split undersized ring was better. It doesn't work well, the installation machine often cuts/nicks them or doesn't get them on tight, trying to get one on at home is dam near impossible.
When buying Moog parts buy local and check the boots super carefully, any nicks or slight cuts even if they don't go all the way through, refuse the part that kind of puts buying from Rock a no go.
I have seen so models with a 50% damage rate, stuff that doesn't use a boot like inner tie rods are fine.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Moog are very old school built parts, in this case old school doesn't equal better. Zerk fittings are long gone and rightfully so, they are not as effective at prolonging joint life as properly sealed boots and modern composite ball seats. Most Euro and Asian cars haven't used zerks in over 3 decades and many of them are still on the road with the original joints.
But that aside the problem with newer Moog joints is the boots, they tried to make a tighter boot but they are rarely properly seated and many times nicked right out of the box, they are installed and fail when greasing. If using zerks a simple push over boot is still the best.

Moog didn't use the common and proven reliable split spiral ring on the boots they decided an internal non split undersized ring was better. It doesn't work well, the installation machine often cuts/nicks them or doesn't get them on tight, trying to get one on at home is dam near impossible.
When buying Moog parts buy local and check the boots super carefully, any nicks or slight cuts even if they don't go all the way through, refuse the part that kind of puts buying from Rock a no go.
I have seen so models with a 50% damage rate, stuff that doesn't use a boot like inner tie rods are fine.


I did a moog front end on the MGM, entire steering linkage, was very disappointed with the tie rods. The tops were very poor fitting, $5 tie rods had tighter boots. When I did the continental(taurus ball joint) I put a poly ball joint cover over it. It looked very delicate. Not greaseable due to the position. I also have moog BJs on the MGM and grease ends up on the rotor, despite the "vent" on the other side. The Explorer Moog ball joints look like they are going to pop one day, they seem very thin. After 8 years the MOOG UCAs on the T-bird have torn boots
frown.gif
. Not worth the bother to warranty at this point.
 
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Originally Posted By: Trav
Moog are very old school built parts, in this case old school doesn't equal better. Zerk fittings are long gone and rightfully so, they are not as effective at prolonging joint life as properly sealed boots and modern composite ball seats. Most Euro and Asian cars haven't used zerks in over 3 decades and many of them are still on the road with the original joints.


Completely wrong. There is nothing negative about having a zerk fitting. The only thing omitting one does is prevent relubrication after the "design life" has ended.

Quote:
But that aside the problem with newer Moog joints is the boots, they tried to make a tighter boot but they are rarely properly seated and many times nicked right out of the box, they are installed and fail when greasing. If using zerks a simple push over boot is still the best.


Nope, again jerks make no difference in this regard, just allow adding fresh grease once the original is exhausted.

Quote:
Moog didn't use the common and proven reliable split spiral ring on the boots they decided an internal non split undersized ring was better. It doesn't work well, the installation machine often cuts/nicks them or doesn't get them on tight, trying to get one on at home is dam near impossible.
When buying Moog parts buy local and check the boots super carefully, any nicks or slight cuts even if they don't go all the way through, refuse the part that kind of puts buying from Rock a no go.
I have seen so models with a 50% damage rate, stuff that doesn't use a boot like inner tie rods are fine.


You're just repeating things you read from questionable sources.

You should check all components whether Moog or not, "super carefully" if worried about early failure. Moog does not have a quality control problem. Their problem is economized design, not economized to severe lengths like low end parts, but still trying to shave a few pennies off and then arrogantly marketing it as a benefit.

Most of their "problem solver" has nothing to do with quality or lifespan, is rather about assuming the installer is an idiot and needs them to simplify something, as if doing 99% of the work then getting a boot or nut on is a difference worth bothering to mention.

That doesn't mean they're not making some useful parts, but it does mean that Problem Solver is inventing a problem as a marketing angle that really isn't remotely a problem if you've gotten this far into replacing the part.
 
Before we start here let me tell you this is not from what I read from questionable resources, this is from my own working experience over 4 decades and a solid education in automotive technology.

Originally Posted By: Dave9
Completely wrong. There is nothing negative about having a zerk fitting

There are many reasons zerks are obsolete in most automotive application. Zerk fittings were used on joints that were metal on metal ball and sockets that are much more prone to wear than the newer composite seat and smooth ball units.
By design the zerk type joints must allow for venting of old grease as new grease is being pumped in, this alone can lead to water and dirt ingress into the joint.

Ideally the same grease is being used every time, the zerk wiped off before putting the gun fitting on and the grease pumped into the joint carefully but in reality most consumers are not doing their own work and this opens the door for damage.
Lube monkeys with air powered grease guns can blow a boot out in short order and there is also the issue of grease compatibility.

A quality grease in a sealed unit can have a lifespan of decades without any service whatsoever, there is more than enough proof of that with the tens of millions of cars on the road with these zerk free joints many of which go to the junk yard with their original joints.

I have done many steering racks that still had the original zerk free outer joints on them. When I started in this business in 1971 replacing front end parts (every one of them with zerk fittings), shocks and exhaust systems were a major part of the business.
 
Excellent real-world reply. Thank you.

Originally Posted By: Trav
Before we start here let me tell you this is not from what I read from questionable resources, this is from my own working experience over 4 decades and a solid education in automotive technology.

Originally Posted By: Dave9
Completely wrong. There is nothing negative about having a zerk fitting

There are many reasons zerks are obsolete in most automotive application. Zerk fittings were used on joints that were metal on metal ball and sockets that are much more prone to wear than the newer composite seat and smooth ball units.
By design the zerk type joints must allow for venting of old grease as new grease is being pumped in, this alone can lead to water and dirt ingress into the joint.

Ideally the same grease is being used every time, the zerk wiped off before putting the gun fitting on and the grease pumped into the joint carefully but in reality most consumers are not doing their own work and this opens the door for damage.
Lube monkeys with air powered grease guns can blow a boot out in short order and there is also the issue of grease compatibility.

A quality grease in a sealed unit can have a lifespan of decades without any service whatsoever, there is more than enough proof of that with the tens of millions of cars on the road with these zerk free joints many of which go to the junk yard with their original joints.

I have done many steering racks that still had the original zerk free outer joints on them. When I started in this business in 1971 replacing front end parts (every one of them with zerk fittings), shocks and exhaust systems were a major part of the business.
 
Originally Posted By: Trav
Before we start here let me tell you this is not from what I read from questionable resources, this is from my own working experience over 4 decades and a solid education in automotive technology.


Thank you for your detailed reply! In theory, chassis part manufacturers claim that the grease-able metal on metal design is superior in toughness to the sealed polished ball + teflon liner joint. I have no doubt that this could be true, but only under ideal conditions where they are properly serviced. All it takes is a lube monkey to blindly jam grease into a dirty zerk, forcing sand/small rocks into the joint. I would think that the metal-on-metal design is better on heavy duty truck applications, but the sealed joint is better in 90% of all other common use cases.
 
Originally Posted By: nobb

In theory, chassis part manufacturers claim that the grease-able metal on metal design is superior in toughness to the sealed polished ball + teflon liner joint. I have no doubt that this could be true, but only under ideal conditions where they are properly serviced. All it takes is a lube monkey to blindly jam grease into a dirty zerk, forcing sand/small rocks into the joint. I would think that the metal-on-metal design is better on heavy duty truck applications, but the sealed joint is better in 90% of all other common use cases.


Ball joint and most other steering joints occurs in two ways, the first is on the lower seat from pounding and second on the upper part of the bearing from pull which when enough wear occurs can result in pull out.
Yes off road vehicles and heavy duty trucks can benefit from an all metal design with zerk fittings but most street driven vehicles see longer service life with the sealed units, of course there are some exceptions where the OE spec missed the mark sizing the OE part, this naturally led to premature failure and in these cases a greasable aftermarket may benefit especially if a higher moly content (5%) grease is used and serviced regularly.

Like anything else all joints and the polymers used are not created equal, a cheap sealed joint that cost $10 at Rock Auto is not by any stretch of the imagination the same quality as the OE part.
Sealed units offer consistent long term low friction properties which allows the manufacturers to dial in steering input pressure over the entire product range this helps prevent that loose steering feel as the vehicle ages without any required maintenance.

This is especially important today with the longer maintenance intervals which can be on some Euro cars can approach 18K and some Domestic/Japanese cars 10K+. This in most cases would be way too long for greasing joints with fittings, imagine an owners maintenance schedule that had no OCI or other service needed but it needs four zerk fittings serviced.

Under ideal conditions, same high quality grease, purged but not overfilled, clean zerks, serviced on time every time then yes they will last as long but we don't live under ideal conditions.
LOF was the order of the day years ago on a shop RO but the grease wasn't the best, it was the cheapest bulk the shop could buy and the mechanics almost never wiped a zerk off, as a consequence we replaced literally dozens of worn out joints every month.
 
I maintain a small fleet of medium duty trucks, mainly Freightliners, and all the joints have zerks on them. I am very careful greasing them. I use dust caps on all the zerks and still wipe them with a clean rag, after pulling off the caps, before applying the grease gun. On the trucks we bought new and I have been the only ones greasing them, there has been just one joint failure, a drag link end. One truck is nineteen years old and that is the one with the failed drag link joint. It still has the original king pins.
 
A perfect example of the right part for the right type of vehicle being serviced properly.
In my previous post I should have said most light duty street driven vehicles meaning cars and light duty pickups.
 
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