Bullet Photos

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Thought I'd start a thread for photos of interesting bullets. I'll start off with some Gold Dots. I just received these Speer Gold Dot 125-grain BJHPs, loaded by Underwood Ammunition to an advertised velocity of 1475 FPS. YouTube tester tnoutdoors9 has found that they exceed this, typically averaging >1500 FPS.

Interestingly, the .357 SIG 125-grain bullets differ quite a bit in design from the 124-grain 9mm. The .357 is broader, with a shallower expansion cavity. Looks to me like it would be less susceptible to plugging.

I put a 10mm Auto in there, as well as a .40 S&W FMJ for comparison.











 
Very nice! I just scored a glock 31, .357 sig barrel for my glock 22 on ebay. .357 sig has always interested me because I really like bottle neck cartridges. They feed excellently and increase velocity without majorly increasing cartridge pressure. IMO, They are quite visually appealing as well!
 
From what I've read about reloading the 357 Sig., it's very finicky to size and trim. Because the case is a bottle-necked .40; powder loading is very painstaking. If you want a 357 Magnum in a small package; get a Ruger LCR and be done with it. IMO, it does nothing that a 40S&W can't do; and I can find ammo for it lots more places.
 
Originally Posted By: 2cool
From what I've read about reloading the 357 Sig., it's very finicky to size and trim. Because the case is a bottle-necked .40; powder loading is very painstaking. If you want a 357 Magnum in a small package; get a Ruger LCR and be done with it. IMO, it does nothing that a 40S&W can't do; and I can find ammo for it lots more places.


Actually, one of the chief reasons for choosing .357 SIG is greatly reduced recoil as compared with .357 MAG out of a small, light revolver.
 
Originally Posted By: john_pifer
Originally Posted By: 2cool
From what I've read about reloading the 357 Sig., it's very finicky to size and trim. Because the case is a bottle-necked .40; powder loading is very painstaking. If you want a 357 Magnum in a small package; get a Ruger LCR and be done with it. IMO, it does nothing that a 40S&W can't do; and I can find ammo for it lots more places.


Actually, one of the chief reasons for choosing .357 SIG is greatly reduced recoil as compared with .357 MAG out of a small, light revolver.


2Cool- The problems you are referring to are from 20 years ago when the .357 sig first came out. It was plagued with problems and reloading confusion, like most new cartridges. Dies, bullet designs and loading data for .357 sig have been perfected and the cartridge overall has been debugged.

I am a 9mm guy but I still find the .357 sig an interesting and very capable cartridge. The high performance .357 sig loads from underwood, buffalo bore and corbon can actually out perform the classic 125 grain .357 magnum load. You get that performance in a small, lightweight, easy to shoot, semi auto of your choice; carrying 12 to 15 rounds in the magazine. .357 sig beats pretty much every other semi auto pistol load in energy and flat trajectory. I can see why a force like highway patrol would like it.

I do wish more companies made a .357 sig barrel for the long slide pistols. A glock 35, Springfield 5.25, M&P Pro, FNS Longslide, would all be delicious chambered in .357 sig. These pistols fill a really unique niche and would even make a good alternative to 10mm or a magnum revolver for us folks that carry a pistol in bear country.

CZ did make a .357 sig barrel for the 5.3" tactical sport pistol for a minute there. Check out the velocities they are getting!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vXjbXd5SY0
 
10mm is the best mm. I've got to get me one of those. A 9x25 barrel would be mandatory too.
 
9x25 is neat too but very hard to find brass for. You may end up having to make the brass yourself.

10mm is cool but the high performance loads actually kick too much for most people and you really get to a point of diminishing returns. Not to mention most of the high performance 10mm hunting loads are almost too powerful for any type of self defense against the 2 legged predators. The FBI learned that the hard way during the early 90s. Many of their shots were misses and the ones that did hit severely over penetrated. It was a pretty good man stopper for the agents that could handle it though.....
 
Originally Posted By: AMC
Not to mention most of the high performance 10mm hunting loads are almost too powerful for any type of self defense against the 2 legged predators. The FBI learned that the hard way during the early 90s. Many of their shots were misses........


Don't ever judge a cartridge on what law enforcement does, (or in this case doesn't do), with it. Law enforcement and marksmanship have never gone hand in hand, regardless of the caliber. There are countless stories out there like this one.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-...ticle-1.2348489
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: AMC
Not to mention most of the high performance 10mm hunting loads are almost too powerful for any type of self defense against the 2 legged predators. The FBI learned that the hard way during the early 90s. Many of their shots were misses........


Don't ever judge a cartridge on what law enforcement does, (or in this case doesn't do), with it. Law enforcement and marksmanship have never gone hand in hand, regardless of the caliber. There are countless stories out there like this one.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-...ticle-1.2348489


I'm honestly impressed with the 30% hit-ratio typical of LE OIS's. If you've ever shot it out with someone in a building or otherwise with a pistol in real incident or simunition training, I think you'll agree!
 
Originally Posted By: billt460
Originally Posted By: AMC
Not to mention most of the high performance 10mm hunting loads are almost too powerful for any type of self defense against the 2 legged predators. The FBI learned that the hard way during the early 90s. Many of their shots were misses........


Don't ever judge a cartridge on what law enforcement does, (or in this case doesn't do), with it. Law enforcement and marksmanship have never gone hand in hand, regardless of the caliber. There are countless stories out there like this one.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-...ticle-1.2348489


You are basically making my point for me. Hit probabilities go out the window in real world situations regardless of the caliber used. Selecting a cartridge like the full power 10mm that most people can barely hit anything shooting on a flat range in a controlled environment isn't going to help that situation at all.

That is part of the reason so many departments are going back to the 9mm. Easier to shoot, you have more rounds on hand if do you chuck a few of them off target and the real world threat stoppage rate is negligible between all of major calibers anyways....
 
Originally Posted By: AMC
Hit probabilities go out the window in real world situations INVOLVING LAW ENFORCEMENT, regardless of the caliber used.


FIFY. Don't heap everyone into what happens involving law enforcement and guns. Cops in general have very little trigger time. Yes, they're "trained". Big deal. So is my dog. Most don't practice regularly, if at all. "Qualification" is a joke, much like most civilian CCW qualification shooting. About the same as the 350 pound doughnut eating patrolman who physically "qualifies". But who couldn't run 2 blocks without collapsing. And then you have the women. I won't even go there, but sadly they're out there. "Armed servants" of the people.

You can't compare them to people who are constantly practicing and training to protect themselves. While most will not get into real world shooting scenarios as much as cops, the better trained individual will always fair better. Regardless if he or she is wearing a uniform, or not. Back in the 70's and 80's when I shot competitively in a pistol league, the easiest teams to beat were the P.D. teams. And yet they had the most opportunity to be the best. (Private ranges and plenty of free practice ammunition, courtesy of the taxpayers). Most of the people I know who are avid shooters and hand gunners, are shooting at least once a week. Some several times a week. They know how to shoot, regardless of the caliber of weapon they're shooting. They all enjoy the time and money they spend with their firearms. This opposed to most cops who are not enthusiastic in the least, and only regard it as, "part of the job".

A .357 Sig or a 10 MM is NOT a difficult weapon to hit with. Especially today, since most of these calibers have been downloaded to far less potential then when they were introduced. You in fact have law enforcement to thank for that, in regards to the 10 MM. They were the one's who approached Winchester and Federal to download it because most all of the women FBI agents couldn't handle it. It's also the same reason much of law enforcement is returning to the 9 MM from the .40 S&W. You can't take a potent round, and throw it at bunch of what amounts to regular folks who just happen to choose law enforcement to earn a living, then judge it on what they can't accomplish with it. Then turn around and say that goes for everyone. Sadly, just because cops carry guns doesn't mean they are accomplished with shooting them, as the article I posted shows. Any more than every guy out there who owns a set of Snap-On tools is a master mechanic.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
10mm is the best mm. I've got to get me one of those. A 9x25 barrel would be mandatory too.


I looked at a couple of ballistics tests of 9x25mm Dillon, and the velocities weren't that much higher than .357 SIG (although I'm sure there are some wicked loads for it that somebody has worked up. Still, didn't seem worth the effort, to me.
 
Originally Posted By: Ws6
I've had very good luck with the Texas DPS load for 357 SIG. Very accurate from my P226. Around 1" at 25 yards.


That's impressive. Did you shoot that group off-hand?
 
Bilt- Trying to compare LE shootings to civilian self defense shootings is tricky at best. Besides all that, you won't find too many serious firearms experts, i.e. trainers, shooting schools, competition shooters, etc that seriously recommend 10mm for anything. Why? Because of all the reasons I listed above, it kicks too hard in full power loads and is much more expensive that almost everything else. Even The 10mm lite is harder to find ammunition and firearms when comparing it to most other more common loads, such as the 40 s&w.

I am not saying the 10mm is absolute junk and totally useless but it is pretty limited in it's niche IMO. Most of the support the big 10 gets is from experienced and usually eccentric civilians shooters who really enjoy having something powerful and unique; Ted Nugent comes to mind. There are other cartridges that I consider to be in the same category as 10mm. The 5.7x28mm is an example; A very cool round that can be extremely capable or watered down and turned pretty useless. It could have some serious military and law enforcement potential but it is almost never loaded correctly to do so. It is in use by some government agencies but not very many. It does have a small cult type of following but is not the best choice for most individuals and agencies who operate in any type of a normal environment.
 
Well....you can put me in that "Ted Nugent/eccentric" category.

I am a big 10mm fan.

My G20 with full power loads (like Buffalo Bore) is very controllable. I've shot .357 revolvers that are far worse, and a 4" .41 Magnum (my brother's model 57) is far worse. My brother's Dan Wesson 10mm is also very controllable. A bit more bark than a 1911 in .45 but nothing like that Model 57.

Now. the Glock is big, and it takes reasonably big hands to get a good grip and reasonably strong hands for managing the recoil, so, no, it's not a good choice for many shooters, and that probably excludes quite a bit of the population.

In my hands, however, follow up shots are quick, as quick as with a .40 compact, or a 9mm compact, though not as quick as a 9mm full size service pistol (like a Beretta 92). I bought the G20 just because I wanted a 10mm. 220g hard cast for bear country, 180g JHP for SD. A very effective pistol with great ballistic performance. 15+1 rounds of very effective performance. It's close to .41 Magnum performance but far, far easier to shoot and holds nearly 3 times the ammo.

It's a great gun.

But, I'll admit, not great for everyone...
 
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Originally Posted By: AMC
.....Most of the support the big 10 gets is from experienced and usually eccentric civilians shooters who really enjoy having something powerful and unique; Ted Nugent comes to mind.....


That is simply nonsense. As Astro has told you, it's a very controllable round. But with that said, he practices with his and buys ammunition by the case. Today, thanks to lawyers and downloading, the 10 MM is little more than a hot .40 S&W, except for a few specialized, expensive loads. Remember, police carried .357 Magnum's for decades. It wasn't until the wonder nines came out in the 70's, that they started gravitating toward the double stack semi's you see today. The bulk of the cops in those days were formidable marksman, who practiced often. And long before police departments had decided to become foolishly politically correct, by employing women cop chicks, who have no more business riding around armed in a patrol car, than they do hanging off the back of a fire engine. But in today's liberal, politically correct world of pansy's, it's the hand we've been dealt.

Sadly, the result of all of this is we have the bulk of cops out there, both male and female, who can't shoot to save their life..... Literally. Let alone shoot with a formidable round. The 10 MM isn't too strong. Nowhere near. Society has become far too weak. Ted Nugent used to be the norm. Today he is labeled as an outcast. You just proved it with your example.
 
My preferred practice round is this: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/177732...ll-metal-jacket and yeah, there's a case in storage, along with a case of Prvi Partizan 10mm 180g JHP, also for practice, but that stuff is actually loaded to .40 specs, at about 1050 FPS...

At 1164 ft/sec and 540 ftlbs, the S&B is not a full pressure 10mm, but it's better than most and it's not breaking the bank, either. The G20 is an easy gun to shoot with that load, a bit hotter than my G17, but not bad at all.

For SD and wildlife protection, I prefer Buffalo Bore, in the weights listed above. The 180 JHP, for example, is a true 1350 FPS and 700+ ftlbs of energy. https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=114 That's not "stunt barrel" performance, that's actual measured performance from a G20. I added a slightly stiffer recoil spring to the G20 to help it with the stronger ammo. There is a bit of increase in recoil, but seriously, even with the Buffalo Bore it's not objectionable and it's no worse than a compact 9mm (like many of the CCW weapons) for follow-up shots. The muzzle flip is similar to a G43 or M&P Shield in 9mm.

But with my G20, I get 15+1 rounds of 10mm with serious impact energy. It's double that of most 9mm HP ammo, nearly double that of 9mm +P, substantially more than a .40 or a .357 SiG. The gun itself is fun to shoot, easy to control, and you simply can't beat the G20's combination of high capacity and high performance rounds.

The only drawback is the size. Many shooters won't be able to comfortably hold it and unless you're built like "Ahnold" with a 54" chest and 36" waist, you're not concealing this pistol...
 
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58 calibre Minie Ball (left) and 44 Colt Revolver (right)..Civil War

1_IMG_0530.JPG
 
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