Photographic evidence of HDEO / synth oil cleaning

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I just mentioned how Auto-RX didn't do anything for an old car I had in a different thread, and I started wondering whether or not there's proof of anything cleaning a sludged engine.

I've had a [censored] of a time finding any proof for the common claim that HDEOs and synthetics will clean sludge out of an engine slowly, over time.

Are there any threads on here that demonstrate this with before and after photos?

*The (censored) over what I wrote made it look like I said something a lot worse. I just used the (gasp) "h" word.
 
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On my Sienna's 3 liter v6 there was some varnish around the spark plug cylinders. After about 5 oil changes i could see that some of that varnish was coming off. I had to rub the metal gently to get it back to silver.

It wasn't magic, but it was getting cleaner. I too tried auto rx, with no luck.
 
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Oil itself can't remove Varnish or Sludge.


Not even a good HDEO or synthetic? I've seen it claimed, as well, that these oils will remove sludge but they won't do anything about varnish. I really have no idea about any of it at this point.

Originally Posted By: JC1
On my Sienna's 3 liter v6 there was some varnish around the spark plug cylinders. After about 5 oil changes i could see that some of that varnish was coming off. I had to rub the metal gently to get it back to silver.

It wasn't magic, but it was getting cleaner. I too tried auto rx, with no luck.



I was a bit surprised when Auto RX did nothing. I had high hopes for it. Actually, I think it's the only additive I've ever used except for Gumout/SL-1/Techron in the gas tank.
 
AutoRX has done nothing for me but lighten my wallet (once...)
frown.gif


In the old days (early 1950's) we used to use ATF. But that was when it had whale oil as one of the ingredients. Has not been there for decades. But same principal applies. You need different chemistry with lower surface tension.

Unfortunately, if you built the varnish with synthetics, where can you turn ... KREEN from Kano Labs will definitely loosen deposits. It's the most aggressive cleaner/solvent you can run in oil while driving. Anything more aggressive will destroy the lubricating qualities of the oil. One can per oil change, or 8 oz per if you are a bit concerned, will get you some visual results in about 5 or 6 oils changes.

I prefer the next slightly lesser solvent/cleaner BG109 (EPR now) which will do the same job, but may take 10 oil changes to do it. I've got the time, I'm just driving it anyway
smile.gif


If you did the dirt/deposits with conventional oil, something like Pennz Plat will do as good a job as it's an alternate chemistry and has lower surface tension. Just what you are looking for.

But baked on hard deposits prolly ain't coming off with anything short of a machine shop and boil tank ...
 
Originally Posted By: 2004tdigls
http://forums.off-road.com/jeep-short-wheelbase/234675-shell-rotella-t-15w40.html

note pictures


I didn't see any before pictures. Overall, though, it's interesting. The cleaning he's claiming is more in line with what I imagine it should look like. The heavy black varnish is still there, but the moving parts are clean. No sludge. Definitely not proof, but interesting nonetheless.

Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
AutoRX has done nothing for me but lighten my wallet (once...)
frown.gif


In the old days (early 1950's) we used to use ATF. But that was when it had whale oil as one of the ingredients. Has not been there for decades. But same principal applies. You need different chemistry with lower surface tension.

Unfortunately, if you built the varnish with synthetics, where can you turn ... KREEN from Kano Labs will definitely loosen deposits. It's the most aggressive cleaner/solvent you can run in oil while driving. Anything more aggressive will destroy the lubricating qualities of the oil. One can per oil change, or 8 oz per if you are a bit concerned, will get you some visual results in about 5 or 6 oils changes.

I prefer the next slightly lesser solvent/cleaner BG109 (EPR now) which will do the same job, but may take 10 oil changes to do it. I've got the time, I'm just driving it anyway
smile.gif


If you did the dirt/deposits with conventional oil, something like Pennz Plat will do as good a job as it's an alternate chemistry and has lower surface tension. Just what you are looking for.

But baked on hard deposits prolly ain't coming off with anything short of a machine shop and boil tank ...


Are there any before/after photos for Kreen? It seems to be a loved cleaning agent here.

The Volvo I'm hoping to clean up was always, as far as I know, filled with strictly conventional oil. I've been using M1HM since I got it.
 
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Oil itself can't remove Varnish or Sludge.


It can, it's just that it's easily saturated with varnish/sludge and can't pick up any more.

There are industrial processes that use electrostatics or activated cellulose depth media to remove varnish in real time from turbine oils (have very low additive levels, basically rust and Oxidation and anti foam). By continually stripping out the varnish, the circulating oil cleans existing deposits away.

Problem is keeping the oil clean.

After not getting any varnish removal on my L67 with ARx, I tried 1,000km oil changes with a Shell 15W40 that claimed to be a cleaner, and after 4-5 still saw nothing.

I want to invent one of these varnish strippers for automotive use and try it...as an idea.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Originally Posted By: clinebarger
Oil itself can't remove Varnish or Sludge.


It can, it's just that it's easily saturated with varnish/sludge and can't pick up any more.

There are industrial processes that use electrostatics or activated cellulose depth media to remove varnish in real time from turbine oils (have very low additive levels, basically rust and Oxidation and anti foam). By continually stripping out the varnish, the circulating oil cleans existing deposits away.

Problem is keeping the oil clean.

After not getting any varnish removal on my L67 with ARx, I tried 1,000km oil changes with a Shell 15W40 that claimed to be a cleaner, and after 4-5 still saw nothing.

I want to invent one of these varnish strippers for automotive use and try it...as an idea.


Nope. The whole point of turbine oil is to not circulate or move any deposits.
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
AutoRX has done nothing for me but lighten my wallet (once...)
frown.gif


In the old days (early 1950's) we used to use ATF. But that was when it had whale oil as one of the ingredients. Has not been there for decades. But same principal applies. You need different chemistry with lower surface tension.

Unfortunately, if you built the varnish with synthetics, where can you turn ... KREEN from Kano Labs will definitely loosen deposits. It's the most aggressive cleaner/solvent you can run in oil while driving. Anything more aggressive will destroy the lubricating qualities of the oil. One can per oil change, or 8 oz per if you are a bit concerned, will get you some visual results in about 5 or 6 oils changes.

I prefer the next slightly lesser solvent/cleaner BG109 (EPR now) which will do the same job, but may take 10 oil changes to do it. I've got the time, I'm just driving it anyway
smile.gif


If you did the dirt/deposits with conventional oil, something like Pennz Plat will do as good a job as it's an alternate chemistry and has lower surface tension. Just what you are looking for.

But baked on hard deposits prolly ain't coming off with anything short of a machine shop and boil tank ...


baked-on deposits aren't hurting anything and are better left baked-on
 
An oil that contains a good amount of detergent additives will clean up sludge deposits and it does not matter if it is a conventional or full synthetic, it's just a matter of how much Calcium and Magnesium detergents it contains. Both Amsoil and Mobil 1 oils have high levels of Calcium based detergents.

Varnish is a different story, although it's more of a concern if you have a turbo as it often forms in the oil feed pipe to the turbo bearings when the OCI is too long. You need real solvents to shift it and I prefer to use an oil flush additive designed for use at idle just before an oil & filter changed.
Any type of oil flush additive can increase oil leaks for a while due to what they call the false oil seal effect. If that happens you might need to switch to an HM oil or use a stop leak additive if it's bad.

If you have an engine where removing the sump is easy, it's a good idea to do that if you suspect any sludge issues. Make sure the oil pump intake screen is clean, as a blocked screen is real bad news. It often causes the low oil pressure warning light to flicker at idle just after a good run in a bad case.
 
Originally Posted By: KingCake

Nope. The whole point of turbine oil is to not circulate or move any deposits.


Really ?

This should be interesting, please elaborate...
 
Originally Posted By: UltrafanUK
Varnish is a different story, although it's more of a concern if you have a turbo as it often forms in the oil feed pipe to the turbo bearings when the OCI is too long. You need real solvents to shift it and I prefer to use an oil flush additive designed for use at idle just before an oil & filter changed.


Couple of points....

Where you find varnish is rarely where it is formed, it's solubility in oil varies with temperature, and it forms in areas of high temperatures and aggressive, oxidative environments.

Then when it reaches a spot where the temperature is below the limits of solubility, it drops out...like an air exposed turbo feed line, as opposed to the drain line.

In my over a decade wrangling steam turbines, the varnish was always was found in the governor boxes and valve gear, absolutely nothing there to "form" the stuff, just a cool spot with lots of bare metal for it to collect on.



As to solvents, the varnish is highly polar, and isn't all that soluble in oil...water based, alkaline detergents are the best at stripping it...before I sold the plastic rocker covers off my L67 (wanted alloys), alkaline based degreaser hacked through it like no brake cleaner was able to touch.
 
Yeah, its very polar, infinitely soluble in water, and would do it...not sure about adding it to oil like some additives do
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
alkaline based degreaser hacked through it like no brake cleaner was able to touch.


I have a heated dip tank I use for cleaning some parts, and use those alkaline water based cleaners in it, only stuff I've seen to remove varnish completely. You can work really hard with some stinky solvents like brake and carb cleaner, or drop it in the tank and walk away.
 
Originally Posted By: Shannow
Yeah, its very polar, infinitely soluble in water, and would do it...not sure about adding it to oil like some additives do


It doesn't mix with oil, look at the ATF acetone mixes that need to be shaken before use.
 
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Yeah, my first car came full of sludge...needed oil, none on the dipstick, half a litre made it full...pulled the rocker cover, and the rockers had their own grooves in the sludge, took 2 litres of sludge out with a scraper.

Filled it with kerosene, and ran it at idle for 15 mins or so, and it drained out (after I poked a hole in the sludge around the drain plug) like cold diff oil.

Couple of quick OCIs to get the kero out, and it was burning the oil like no tomorrow (20W40 recycled SF), but proper oil curbed it...would pour a litre of diesel in come oil change time, and idle for 10-15 before dumping it.

I got lucky.
 
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