1997 Saturn P0326 No power

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First off I've had a few S-series cars so I am fairly familiar with working on them. This is a new to me 1997 SW1 with 140k and a 5-speed.

Car has a new thermostat (ECTS is brass type), NGK plugs and plug wires, I've swapped the coils and Ignition module I've replaced the Crankshaft position sensor and the Knock sensor. I've also replaced the fuel pump with a new Carter assembly and a new fuel filter (pressure test good). None of these parts have changed the symptoms at all.

Symptoms are the car is just gutless, doesn't feel like its missing or running rough but it will not accelerate in any gear above 1st without flooring it. P0326 is a knock sensor code and it usually means the sensor detects something loud and even after the computer retards the timing the sound remains. This car is running with the ignition advance at 35ish degrees under normal load (according to my scanner) Will get closer to 0 at WOT but there still is very little power (I'm not sure if any of these numbers are normal or not). If I disconnect the battery for a while the car will run perfectly normal until the code sets again then the power goes away. I've never heard the car spark knock ever, all pulleys and exhaust are quiet.

Any thoughts? I'm thinking the computer itself may be bad. Sorry for long post..
 
I had a friend with an Olds of 1980's vintage with similar symptoms. He even replaced the computer to no avail. Then a good mechanic realized that the knock detector was hearing a repetitive sound from the speedometer cable. A new cable and the problem was gone.

Is it possible that something is making a noise that the knock detector is assuming is knock and seriously retarding the timing???
 
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Sure the cam timing hasn't jumped? Sounds like it, might be worth checking it.

Saturns used timing chains so I doubt it.
 
Some guy I was talking to at the auto parts store told me his chevy pickup went into "limp" mode because it had a charging system problem. Either just a bad battery or maybe it was a bad alternator. Can't remember.

My wife's chevy Aveo went into "limp" mode because it had a bad TPS. It wouldn't go more than 5-10 mph.
 
The belt tensioner on this car can go bad and be really loud. Like rod knock loud.. I bought a saturn once for $500 that the owner though was rod know and the tensioner was the source.

Make sure the knock sensor is a decent brand like Standard Motor parts..
Also check for any loose brackets, or exhaust that can tap and trip the sensor.

You might try wrapping some teflon tape around the threads of the knock sensor insulating it and reducing its sensitivity.
 
What's your oil consumption like? I was getting doggy on a saturn that burnt oil then "remembered" getting that slug. But I'd have a 1/2 second of knock then it would hit "dog mode" albeit without the code you have. This would be after a long red traffic light or after coasting down a hill in gear then hitting the gas at the bottom.

What if you keep the revs above 3500 ish? They're "knock sensor exempt", though if you have a code this might take timing away for limping reasons.
 
Replace coolant sensor in head, also check/clean ignition coil mounting area for corrosion.
 
Originally Posted By: Bottom_Feeder
Originally Posted By: bullwinkle
Sure the cam timing hasn't jumped? Sounds like it, might be worth checking it.

Saturns used timing chains so I doubt it.
I thought the same thing about my old Nissan Stanza 2.4-chain jumped 1 tooth backwards, ran with very little power. Something is causing the knock sensor to trigger limp mode.
 
Oil consumption is quite low for a Saturn, I don't think it has jumped timing because it runs good if I disconnect the computer and let it reset. Power does pick up if I get above 3500 rpm that's a good tip about it being 'knock sensor exempt'. I did post on the saturnfans website and one of the most experienced people over there said to take a look at the belt and pulleys and there is a roughness in the tensioner pulley that can be heard with a stethoscope, but not just listening to the engine. Going to go that route. I also have another PCM coming ($20 on ebay) that I can swap in if pulleys don't do the trick. I really can't hear any other noises..
 
If you try and rev it up in neutral does it speed up quick or hesitate before revving up?
 
Originally Posted By: dishdude
If you try and rev it up in neutral does it speed up quick or hesitate before revving up?


If you rev in neutral it speeds up normally. No hesitation that I can notice.
 
Originally Posted By: nwjones18
Originally Posted By: dishdude
If you try and rev it up in neutral does it speed up quick or hesitate before revving up?


If you rev in neutral it speeds up normally. No hesitation that I can notice.


The times I have seen the timing be a tooth or two off, the engine would really struggle to build speed. It doesn't sound like you have that issue.
 
Originally Posted By: Nickdfresh
Have you posted at "saturnfans.com"? It's old timers don't post there much, but might be worth a shot...


I'll second this, the boards are still active and there's still a few ultra experts around. I'd be amazed if they cant help you narrow down otherwise unsolvable problems.
 
Here is a GM Bulletin:



xTooltipElement

Service Information Home Publications Number Search New Bulletins Bulletin Search Feedback Help
1997 Saturn SL1/SC1/SW1 | SL,SL1, SC1, SW1, SL2, SC2, SW2 VIN Z Service Manual | Document ID: 1218982
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#01-T-12: Intermittent Lack of Power and/or DTC P0326 - (Jan 7, 2003)
Subject: Intermittent Lack of Power and/or DTC P0326 (Replace Camshaft - P/N 21007289, If Necessary and Replace Knock Sensor - P/N 21025126)

Models: 1996 - 1997 Saturn S–Series vehicles equipped with SOHC engines (RPO L224)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Condition
Some customers may comment about an intermittent lack of power on acceleration on vehicles equipped with SOHC (L24) engines. This condition is most likely to occur on a vehicle which has had a cylinder head replacement.

Cause
This condition may be caused by the knock sensor picking up noises within a certain frequency and during specific engine conditions that the PCM may incorrectly interpret as spark knock. The PCM will retard spark advance in an attempt to eliminate the perceived spark knock. If this reduction in spark advance is great enough, the driver will perceive a loss of power from the vehicle.

This condition can result from several different causes, however the two primary causes addressed by this bulletin are:

•Noise occurring as the intake valve closes or momentarily bounces against the valve seat, and/or;
•Normal engine noises (not spark knock) which causes the PCM to unnecessarily retard spark timing.
Correction
Refer to the procedure in this bulletin for corrective action.

Procedure
 1. Evaluate vehicle under the conditions described by the customer. This condition may be very intermittent and difficult to reproduce. This condition is most likely to occur with the engine at normal operating temperature, under light to moderate load, under light to moderate throttle, and engine speed between 1500—2000 rpm.
 2. Using a Scan tool, monitor the following parameters in the SPARK CONTROL screen under the Engine Data Display:
◦LOW SPARK MODIFIER
◦MID SPARK MODIFIER
◦HIGH SPARK MODIFIER
If any or all of the SPARK MODIFIERS increase above 6.0 and the lack of power is experienced process to next step.

If none of the SPARK MODIFIERS shown any activity but the values stay in lower (below 4.0) range and are intermittent, the condition may not be corrected by the parts and procedures in this bulletin. Refer to additional diagnostic information (Low Refer to additional diagnostic information (Low Power, Spark Knock, or DTC P0326) in the appropriate model year Powertrain Controls service manual.

Object ID: 878239Click here for detailed picture of the image.

 3. Camshaft identification number must be located and read.
 4. Remove cylinder head rocker cover. (Refer to “SOHC (L24) Cylinder Head Removal” procedure in the appropriate model year Engine/Fuel/Air Intake/Exhaust service manual for rocker cover removal information.)
 5. Remove the rear camshaft bearing plug by tapping it inward (toward the camshaft) using a punch and a hammer. Remove the plug from the cylinder head and discard.
Object ID: 878243Click here for detailed picture of the image.

 6. Inspect the end of the camshaft for stamped identification numbers. The identification numbers may be difficult to see. Use various light angles and/or a magnifying glass to aid viewing if you are unable to distinguish the ID numbers easily.
◦If the four digits “7289” are not stamped into the end of the camshaft, the date code is before June 1, 1998 (A/B/C 6018), or the numbers cannot be determined, obtain and install a new camshaft P/N 21007289 and proceed to next step. (refer to “Camshaft - In - Vehicle” procedure in the SOHC Cylinder Head section of the appropriate model year Engine/Fuel/Air Intake/Exhaust service manual.
◦If the four digits “7289” (last four digits of P/N 21007289) are stamped into the end of the camshaft and/or the heat treat date is on or after June 1, 1998 (A/B/C 6018) proceed to next step.
 7. Coat a new rear camshaft bearing plug P/N 21006560 with Saturn P/N 21485277. (Loctite 242 ® or equivalent) and install it using an approximately sized standard bushing driver.
 8. Install cylinder head rocker cover. (Refer to the “SOHC (L24) Cylinder Head Installation” procedure in the SOHC (L24) Cylinder Head section of the appropriate model year Engine/Fuel/Air Intake/Exhaust service manual for rocker cover installation information.)
 9. Install new knock sensor (P/N 21025126). (Refer to “Knock Sensor” procedure in the Ignition/Spark Control section of the appropriate model year Powertrain Controls service manual for knock sensor procedure.)
Parts Requirements:
21007289
Camshaft

21006560
Camshaft Bearing Hole Plug

21025126
Knock Sensor

21485277
Threadlocker Loctite 242°

21015248
Gasket Asm - Valve Rocker Arm Cover


Claim Information
To receive credit for this repair during the warranty coverage period, submit a claim through the Saturn Dealer System as follows:

Case Type
Description
Labor Operation Code
Time

VW
Inspect Camshaft Park Number and
Z4150
0.6 hrs

Replace Knock Sensor

ADD:
A. To Replace Camshaft
3.1

B. With P/S
0.2

C. To Replace Rocker Cover Gasket if Necessary
0.2


Important: The Loctite 242® must be claimed as a “material” using Net Item Code “M.” Refer to the table below for the material required, material cost, quantity required, and material reimbursement amount.

Repair Location
Material Required
Retailer Material Cost
Quantity Required
Material Reimbursement Amount (30% Parts Allowance)

Camshaft Rear Bearing Plug
Loctite 242®
$0.35
0.5 ML
$0.46

GM bulletins are intended for use by professional technicians, NOT a "do-it-yourselfer". They are written to inform these technicians of conditions that may occur on some vehicles, or to provide information that could assist in the proper service of a vehicle. Properly trained technicians have the equipment, tools, safety instructions, and know-how to do a job properly and safely. If a condition is described, DO NOT assume that the bulletin applies to your vehicle, or that your vehicle will have that condition. See your GM dealer for information on whether your vehicle may benefit from the information.

WE SUPPORT VOLUNTARY TECHNICIAN CERTIFICATION

© 2016 General Motors. All rights reserved.
 
Sorry for the crazy characters in the copy/paste/ For some reason whenever I copy/paste in BITOG strange characters get added.
 
Here is more info..again sorry for the way text gets pasted in here.


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Service Information Home Publications Number Search New Bulletins Bulletin Search Feedback Help


1997 Saturn SL1/SC1/SW1 | SL,SL1, SC1, SW1, SL2, SC2, SW2 VIN Z Service Manual | Document ID: 1209318
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DTC P0326
Circuit Description

Object ID: 899920Click here for detailed picture of the image.

The purpose of this code is to indicate excessive engine noise. The knock sensor can not differentiate between spark knock and other similar engine noises. When the knock sensor can not eliminate noise by retarding spark timing, DTC P0326 will be set.

Conditions for Setting the DTC
Important: The knock circuit is continuously monitored for these parameters.

DTC P0326 will set if the PCM can not reduce engine noise by retarding timing, e.g. the engine noises probably not due to spark knock.

Diagnostic Aids
DTC P0326 indicates excessive engine noise usually caused by something else besides spark knock. It does not indicate a faulty knock sensor circuit subsystem.

Possible Causes
•Valve lifter noise
•Belt tensioner
•Loose bracket
•Low octane fuel in high ambients while pulling loads
•Piston/cylinder bore scuffed
The PCM has the ability to learn spark retard. If knock is present long enough to fill the mid, hi, and low spark compensating cells, a reduced power condition may result due to maximum spark retard. The spark compensating cells will eventually learn back (0) when the knock condition is corrected.

The spark compensating cells (hi, mid, and low spark comp) may be viewed on the scan tool spark table.

The stored spark retard (hi, mid, and low table values) are adjusted according to start-up coolant temperature.

If the coolant temperature is:

•Below 8°C (46°F), table values are set to 0.
•Below 56°C (133°F), table values are set to 75 percent of stored learned values.
•Above 104°C (219°F), stored values are used.
Temperatures in between are adjusted on a percentage value.
© 2016 General Motors. All rights reserved.
 
Spark knock can be caused by excessive exhaust back pressure and the back pressure itself will cause a huge drop in power. Pull the forward O2 sensor and hook up a back pressure gauge. 2 psi is too much.
 
Wow thanks GMBoy! I'm waiting on a new tensioner to come in and will report if that changes anything. Fingers crossed its not a problem with the camshaft!
 
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